"Know my Power" General MK Discussion

[ensane]

Yeah Goku is practically a hard counter. Also, I believe dsmash was nerfed.

[dry]

was it? I swear it was a lot weaker in Brawl, not killing until around 130%.

So why is Goku a hard counter on Metaknight? Sorry, only been here a couple of days, haven't read many threads :S

[El Maiz]

I'm not saying that he has an advantage over MK, he's just better.

[falcon8r]

DSmash was technically nerfed from Brawl's version, but it's still quite good.

It now has a 6 frame start-up, whereas it had a 5 frame start-up in Brawl.

It doesn't have much KO power unless it is tipped, or if it hits with the reverse hitbox.

Also, it's fairly easy to punish.

Of course, it's still one of Meta Knight's most important moves.

[El Maiz]

I think it was 4 frames in Brawl if you were fast with the C-stick, as fast as Ike's jab, IIRC.

[falcon8r]

Ike's was a 3-frame jab, so it still would have been slower. The frame data on Smashboards says that Meta Knight's Down Smash hits on frame 5.

[dry]

Well, it's still a godamn fast move. And anyway, because the range of the first hit has been nerfed so much, it's actually easier to tip it. Maybe that's why I thought it had buffed in power.

Also, do different characters have different levels of DI in crusade, like they do in brawl? One of Metaknight's strong points from Brawl was the ability to DI out of a lot of combos and survive kills, because he had a good DI.

[PartisanDaw]

Metaknight have good DI? Never know that(Never played Brawl ).

In Crusade,for me at least,hes Top Tier and will be. The only slow attack are his FSmash(I think it need to be a little bit faster).Meta is a good chooise for Air games.
Fair,Bair and Nair are very good for racking up damage and Combos.

[ensane]

He didn't have that kind of good DI. The kind of DI he was good at was the kind that helps momentum cancel because it relies a character's fastest aerial (or air dodge if it's fastest). He had the fastest aerial in the game, and also the best DI. The kind of DI that gets you out of combos are smash DI, which is the same for everyone, and just plain DI, which relies on air speed. Meta Knight has crappy air speed and isn't the best for that DI.

Also, the fsmash speed is good because if hits people who expect a dsmash or shuttle loop and spotdodge or drop shield too early

[dry]

Yeah, that's what I meant. Metaknight had the fastest aerial and air dodge in the game. I think smash DI is a lot easier than in Brawl, because I can easily DI around in the explosion of a Smart Bomb.

His f-smash only seems slow because his other attacks are so fast. His f-smash has the same startup as Link's fastest attack (b-air).

Also, his n-air is absolutely incredible (only just discovered this). It has no landing lag AT ALL, so if you time it and land before you get the fourth hit, you can instantly combo into a d-smash or u-special. And because of the range nerf on his d-smash, it is much easier to sweetspot, so in other words Metaknight's killing power has been buffed loads. And killing power was supposed to be one of Metaknight's weak points.

Did you guys intend for this to happen? I'd have thought after Brawl, you'd have tried to nerf him a lot XD

[falcon8r]

Honestly, his DSmash is one of the weakest Smash attacks in terms of KO power, even when tipped.

And yeah, his FSmash has a 22-frame startup. Link's Bair is like 4-frame in Brawl.

Also, his Nair has a 9-frame landing recovery time until frame 27, after which it is 7-frame. If you can combo Up B from it, it's a 2-frame link. Nair's first three hits deal 20 hit stun frames, and Up B has an 8-frame startup.

We DID try to nerf Meta Knight a lot. Here's just a few of the more obvious things we nerfed:

• Aerial Shuttle Loop does less knockback.
  
• Gliding doesn't allow him to regain lost height.
  
• Range on a lot of attacks nerfed (especially front part of DSmash).
  
• Damage on several attacks nerfed (epsecially Mach Tornado and Forward Tilt).
  
• Mach Tornado is much slower and easier to punish.
  

[ensane]

The only change I didn't like was the overall range nerf; however, he certainly isn't a bad character, so I'll just have to live with it

[DGN]

Something I'd like to bring up is that the CPU is terrible at recovery.
They'll be off stage, use the paraloop, then immediately tilt the glide upwards, making them fall to their doom.
Its really kind of pointless for them, as even the level 9's do this.

[falcon8r]

Okay, I just worked on this. They seem to do better at it, but of course, it needs more testing.

[dry]

Meta Knight's range was nerfed? Maybe in terms of characters, yes, but in terms of his own body size, his range was buffed, I thought. His f-tilt reaches two Metaknights in front of him here, but in Brawl, his f-tilt is barely one Metaknight length. Might just be me and my weird vision =\

[El Maiz]

The character sizes are terribly screwed up because none of our sprites match and they almost all suck.