The Ancient Minister

[falcon8r]

Shadow Bugs to me are a little awkward on paper, but I think we could make them work in the game.

And for the record, I've only ever seen one ROB in person. And it wasn't for sale.

[sumika]

Werent shadow bugs from G&W anyway...?

[El Maiz]

I don't really think the Shadow Bugs are the best idea, but what else do we have?

[Dettadeus]

Originally my idea was that the Shadow Bugs would seem to act on their own, since the Minister dislikes them but is forced to use them. There are a number of times in SSE that he summons a large number of them to distract enemies while he sets up a Subspace Bomb. I'm trying to avoid using the R.O.B. squad too much since otherwise his moveset would just include him standing there while R.O.B. fights for him.
There are a number of characters throughout video gaming that essentially have something else fight for them, such as Gaara with sand. That's kind of what I'm going for with the Shadow Bugs.
@nights: They were made from Mr. Game&Watch, but he didn't have to be there for the Minister to use them.
Also, @falcon: That would probably disprove Phantom's point of having the Minister as an alt-select ruining R.O.B.'s "nostalgia". I really think the only people who played with R.O.B. as a child are WAY to old to be playing this game; they'd be in their 30s by now.

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Hence why many people think R.O.B. in Smash is pointless because he's not important.

Because they Didn'tDoTheResearch. loltvtropes.

[DGN]

May 3, 2011 19:47:01 GMT -5 Dettadeus said:

n-jab: a primid appears and does two jabs; a lower cut, and an uppercut.

f-tilt: A primid appears and attacks with the sword.
u-tilt: a small, blue one of those fat guys that could grow over time falls down in front of him.
d-tilt: Minister shoots a small lazer diagonally downwards.

dash attack: AM stops and the present guy that runs away runs for a distance.
edge attack: A fish thing pops up, attacks an opponent, and AM clatches on to a tentacle.

grab: This will probably incorporate Generic's idea of a R.O.B. performing the grab.
f-throw: Mites appear, and they carry the opponent a distance away, and ROB shoots him.
u-throw: ROB throws the opponent up and AM shoots him.
d-throw: Shadow bugs surround the opponent, bringing him down to the ground if "on the ground" is added, but if not, they surround him, doing a bit of damage, and ROB pushes the opponent.
b-throw: swirls around and flings opponent into air behind minister, shoots a laser at them.


f-smash: a R.O.B. appears and tackles forward
d-smash: Those lip guys that are underground come out of both sides underground next to AM. If they touch someone, they clasp onto him/her and make him/her have knockback.
u-smash: A yellow, or possibly a red of those fat guys that grow over time falls in front of him.

n-aerial: AM spins, stopping his movement, and a Shaydas appears while he's spinning, slicing in both directions.
f-aerial: makes one of those guys that if you hit, regenerates health over time appear and does that ghastly think for multiple hits.
b-aerial: same as R.O.B.'s, chucks hover-pad when in use.
u-aerial: A dark cloud enemy appears above AM's head, and it shocks anybody it touches.
d-aerial: A pelican thing appears, AM grabs onto it, and it does a meteor smash with the beak.

n-special: laser (same properties as R.O.B.'s, maybe an extra level of charge)
f-special: R.O.B. Launcher appears, fires a rocket.
d-special: Command: Summons either a R.O.B. that goes upon its own path, shooting enemies, and can be hit 3 times for destruction, and is most likely, a primid, which can shoot beams from his lazer and attack with a sword, with a less chance, and are destroyed upon 5 hits, and those guys that look like a metal dragon that if you hit several times they'll have a green thing in the middle, that takes 10 hits to destroy the dragon thing and 5 for the green orb, and is as rare as a Mew or Celebi.
u-special: hovering platform appears below him, similar properties to R.O.B.'s u-special.

final smash: four R.O.B.s and a subspace bomb appear, two R.O.B.s will attempt to grab 1-2 opponents and hold them while the other two activate the subspace bomb. ancient minister hops on his hovering platform and gets out of the way. the explosion will be about the size of jigglypuff's puff-up, and will suck the R.O.B.s (and any opponents they have) into the explosion. explosion functions like a smart bomb with reversed knockback.

Added my thoughts, as well as a changed down aerieal.
I'll add the throw ideas later.
EDIT: Done.
And I plan on remaking my rating:
Moveset Potential: 5: not only can he use enemies from subspace, he can summon the enemies for their assistance, and attack with all the moves ROB can.
Uniqueness: 4: I don't think we've ever seen a person like this, aside from the fact that he has a few moves of ROB. No one currently in the game uses other characters to attack.
Representation: 5: He represents the game we're playing, and the critically approved subspace emissary, which was a crossover from almost all Nintendo games in an actual, enticing storyline. And currently, no one in the game represents the game itself, and a movie-game thing, or rather a subsection of a game.
Popularity: 5: If you've played Brawl, which is one of Nintendo's most popular franchises, you've seen him. If you're a fan of smash, you know the Emissary, even if you haven't played it.
Overall: 19

[Dettadeus]

In light of recent events bringing back the possibility of the Ancient Minister's inclusion, I hereby bump this thread for further discussion.
Also, I'm once again working on the moveset.

Also, I will keep the OP updated with things like reasons for his inclusion and his moveset once I really get going on it.
Sprites will once again be posted in the Art Corner thread whenever I actually get around to it, which will likely be after the moveset is complete.

[GoldenYuiitusin]

"And he has summoned Shadow Bugs.
(Watch in 720p if you can; it's a lot easier to see. Generic made the mistake of seeing the ground as shadow bugs in 360p)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJTTfCJ36Qc
0:49. No shadow bugs anywhere on the ground.
0:54. Just look at that army that just came out of nowhere."

At 0:49 the camera is too far away to tell if ANYTHING is there. For all we know, they could've already been there and they were too small for us to see.
And as shown in the beginning of the SSE, the Shadow Bugs came from the Halberd and THEN the Ancient Minister appeared (in a seperate cutscene). So my conclusion is, the Halberd already passed by, dropped the Shadow Bugs, then when the Ancient Minister showed, they formed into Primids.

As for your case against a mini Master Hand, the idea I originally had for my roster was a smaller counterpart that played like and had the properties of a Smasher. Meaning it doesn't float, is controlled like one, and has to get smashed off the stage like any other character.
With attacks that Master Hand (and to an extent, Crazy Hand) can do, Apprentice Hand has an assortment of moves.

[member 777]

if we should have any hand playale it should be that one form kirby super star that rocky one to add uniqueness and to add a boss to the roster

[Dettadeus]

@mini Master Hand: That doesn't change the fact that it's not an actual Smash character. It may be Smash BASED, but not Smash-Original like the Minister and the Hands.

I see your point about the Halberd showing up prior to the cutscene, but there's nothing outright denying the fact that the Minister could have Shadow Bugs with him. I'll look through all the cutscenes again and see if there's anything useful.
Also about the cutscene and summoning the bugs, if there were bugs already present, the ground would at the least be tinted purple considering the number of bugs and Primids at the end. Unless they come out of the ground, which would be kind of odd now that I think about it, a point to my advantage.

Also, slightly irrelevant at this point, but Captain Falcon FTW. With slightly more sense in it.

Anyways, let's also consider just how much empty space is inside that costume of his. It could easily be filled with Shadow Bugs that he could carry around and use for offense/defense.

[member 777]

if it fell form the helberd then hoe come at 47 0r 48 we cannot see it fall from the sky

i mean really all that shadow bugs fell withen 3 sec to the ground from the helbred

[DGN]

Actually, no.
The halberd came earlier, and the primids only summoned at that time-my guess is due to the minister.

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Once again, only the PERSONA of the Ancient Minister is Smash original. Who he is (R.O.B.) is not.
It's the same case as Giga Bowser. The form he is in is Smash original, but it's still Bowser. Therefore, he can't completely be called a Smash original character.

Key words "at the end". BEFORE that, though, the bugs were very miniscule. Even the Minister looked very small at the camera angle.

The key difference between Captain Falcon and the Ancient Minister is that Captain Falcon is given moves to fight with that somewhat make sense (as he gives off a bit of a "superhero" vibe by his appearance), while the Minister is given mostly half-assed (I don't mean this as offense) summons. And using the two kunai on his person (which are just for show, mind you. They are NOT appendages.) as detachable arms makes no sense. It makes less sense than the Captain Ganon issue.

And considering that R.O.B. was folded down to FIT in the costume (watch the R.O.B. reveal cutscene), there's barely any free space to fit them.


And before you say anything, realize that I haven't supported the Minister since day 1. I haven't been this vocal about it until some points were made that can be heavily countered.

[Dettadeus]

Still more Smash-original than "Apprentice Hand". His trophy states that his first (and only) appearance is Brawl. So yes, the persona of the Minister is smash original. I get that point. Hence, he isn't going to be a separate character if he gets in.

If you get a bunch of shadow bugs clumped up, there will be something visible on the ground. In that cutscene, while the camera passes over the bugs, you can see individual bugs on the ground. They're rather large. They should be visible on the ground at 0:49 in that video, but they are not. And you should still note that there is nothing on the ground at 0:48-0:49, but at 0:54 there's a massive purple clump on the ground.

Mind you, I removed all the Kunai attacks from his moveset. And the summons? They make perfect sense. The Minister can summon pretty much any part of the Subspace Army as a Shadow Bug Doppelganger.

R.O.B.'s arms were folded, yes. But, there's the space between his shoulder-part and his base, for one. The part of his body that connects his head with his base is tiny, leaving lots of room between it and the edges of the cloak that is not taken up by R.O.B.'s arms.
EDIT: And don't forget the hat. If R.O.B.'s eyes are where they are, there's pretty much nothing in that hat.

And I know you don't support the Minister. You've said that before. Multiple times.

[GoldenYuiitusin]

If all of his moves are going to be based on summons, then the character isn't worth using.

I mean, using appendages that aren't there is one thing, but having a minion do your fighting FOR you? Then why are YOU the one playable? It reminds me of Cream in Sonic Battle, which is wrong on SO many levels and shouldn't have happened, but that's not the topic at hand.

[Dettadeus]

Remember Gaara from Naruto? Why not just fight as the sand instead of Gaara, since it does 90% of the fighting? And Shino Aburame as well; his fighting style in the Naruto games is actually what I'm basing some of the shadow bug attacks on. There are also other characters in fighting games (Yuna in Dissidia Duodecim comes to mind first) who fight entirely by using summons. I'm not even joking; not a single one of her attacks lacks her summoning something, and yet the character still works. You can't fight as a shadow bug or a clump of them, and a Primid by itself is hardly feasible.

Not all of his moves are based on summons anyways. N-Special, U-Special, D-Air, B-air, to name a few from the old moveset that I'm keeping (and yes, I know these are also the ones that are taken from R.O.B.).

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Jun 19, 2011 0:17:29 GMT -5 Dettadeus said:

Remember Gaara from Naruto? Why not just fight as the sand instead of Gaara, since it does 90% of the fighting? And Shino Aburame as well; his fighting style in the Naruto games is actually what I'm basing some of the shadow bug attacks on. There are also other characters in fighting games (Yuna in Dissidia Duodecim comes to mind first) who fight entirely by using summons. I'm not even joking; not a single one of her attacks lacks her summoning something, and yet the character still works. You can't fight as a shadow bug or a clump of them, and a Primid by itself is hardly feasible.

Not all of his moves are based on summons anyways. N-Special, U-Special, D-Air, B-air, to name a few from the old moveset that I'm keeping (and yes, I know these are also the ones that are taken from R.O.B.).

Gaara CONTROLS the sand. The sand is not alive. (Ever since the Shukaku was removed from him) HOWEVER, Gaara also fights by punching and kicking, as shown in the fighting games.
As for the insects, the Aburame clan's specialty is that they are living vessels for the insects to live in. They are one with the insects. And Shino also fights by punching and kicking.

The Shadow Bugs are somewhat alive and have their own mind (unlike Gaara's sand), and are not a part of the Ancient Minister himself (unlike Shino's bugs). The only way it would make sense is if Mr. Game & Watch were to use them, but I doubt that would EVER happen.

And I know you are going to use Kiba as another example with Akamaru however, he isn't SUMMONED, he is always with Kiba to fight alongside him. So your next argument will be the Konohamaru Ninja Squad in the Ultimate Ninja games. Konohamaru does most of the fighting, the other two jump in to fill in where he'd lack on his own (being significantly weaker on his own compared to other characters).

Also, using anime rules to support your idea is not wise. Otherwise, I could easily counter and say that we should have a character that is unable to be harmed unless you aim for one certain spot.

Having most of the Minster's moves be where someone attacks for him makes for a bad idea. Especially if the only moves where he actually does the fighting are cloned off another character.

The way I see it, if you have to make someone jump in and attack whenever you press a button, it means that the character is a bad idea. A prime example of this is Sakura in Battle Stadium D.O.N. (the ACTUAL game). Sakura is the WEAKEST character in the game, and her specials ALL have to do with summoning the Inner Sakura to fight for her. It's just doesn't work for it, and Smash is similar in premise to that game.

Dissidia is the type of game where a summoning character like Yuna fits right in. Smash is not that type of game.

[Dettadeus]

Actually, I wasn't going to use any of those other characters as examples.
On the point of Gaara, you're incorrect. Gaara CAN control the sand, but most of the time it acts of its own accord; he even states this at one point. Defensive maneuvers can be performed by the sand even while Gaara is completely unconscious. This is still true even after Shukaku is removed.
I never said that he would fight exactly like those two, I said the Shadow Bugs would work in a similar manner. And Shino has, maybe two or three punching and kicking attacks in most Naruto games, because every character does. But this is probably enough discussion about Naruto stuff.

Sure, they're cloned off another character, but it's the character that the Minister would be sharing a spot with and is an alternate form of. It's not like Ryu and Evil Ryu don't share any moves.

And how do you know that a character who attacks mostly by summoning or commanding another entity won't work? We don't have any characters like that in smash, and therefore it brings something new to the table and makes the Minister unique, as well as de-cloning him a bit from R.O.B.

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Other games with a similar premise (Sakura in Battle Stadium D.O.N., Cream in Sonic Battle) prove otherwise. If this was a game where you can fly around and attack (Budokai Tenkaichi, Dissisia, etc.) it would be fine, but a sidescrolling fighter does not work.

[Dettadeus]

Well, think about it this way.
Let's take an idea for an F-Tilt as an example and base it off of R.O.B.'s. A chain or clump of Shadow Bugs appears before the Minister and launches outwards, then returns to him or sinks into the ground. That's what some of the shadow bug-based attacks could be like.
Attacks that are planned to include a Primid or R.O.B. Squad member (let's take S-Special for example) have the Shadow Bugs morph into something else to attack, in this case a R.O.B. Launcher that then fires a missile (or we could simply have a R.O.B. Launcher appear out of nowhere). Something like the D-Special, which summons a Primid of varying strength and appearance depending on the charge, would be like having a Purple Pikmin walking around and attacking on its own, but larger.

But oh wait, here's something I entirely missed: Olimar uses his Pikmin to attack for him (and occasionally he uses them like a battering weapon). Look at that, a similar concept. Why not play as the Pikmin and simply take Olimar out of the picture then? He only has 4 attacks that don't require Pikmin (not counting his D-Special), and he commands them in a similar manner to how the Minister would command the Shadow Bugs.