Crusade Back Room

[Werekill]

Ph, I've been posting on SWF for years, and even though I don't have much tourney experience, I have plenty of competitive knowledge.

I also play a ton of other fighting games (Blazblue ftw!) more than smash, so I know what makes good balance.

[Dettadeus]

Mar 28, 2011 16:16:45 GMT -5 El Maiz said:

First person to go in there should be Detta.

Eh, Golden can go first. He's been around longer than I have.

At this point, I think there's really only 5-10 people who'd get in, three to four of whom are the devs. And I think, as far as tier lists are concerned, the more feedback, the better. Smashworld Forums can pull off making the tier lists in the back room because they have enough people. We don't have quite as many people as we need to make a good tier list, especially as we progress towards our full roster of 80 characters.

I'm still in the "Don't particularly care" boat.

[perfecthell4]

Ok. I'm not trying to put anyone down or anything like that, I'm just trying to show everyone a sense of realism for applicants here, coming from an unbiased standpoint. I wasn't trying to say you couldn't be in, simply that activity isn't the only factor. I personally have no idea of your qualifications.

[El Maiz]

Wouldn't Werekill or Nights decide on who could be in.

We need a list.

[Dettadeus]

Like El Maiz (Repeat Boy) said, I'd be pretty dang qualified*, but that's besides the point.
What are the things required to become accepted over at the Super Smash Flash Back Room?

@maiz: I think it would be up to Werekill, Falcon or Phantom more than Night's. Maybe being approved by two of the three would work.


*Qualifications include: Making a character guide and assisting in the creation of another, making v0.6's tier list (still sorta in progress), keeping track of most currently and publicly known information, and I'm probably one of the best Crusaders around.

[perfecthell4]

Over at the SFBR, you fill out an application, which asks who you believe should be at the top of the SSF2 tier list and why, then another question for the bottom of the list and why, it asks your experience and mains for the original 3 smash games, your tournament experience if any, why you would make a good member of the BR and what you will contribute, it asks what your favorite stage is, who you main and why, how long you have played SSF2, view on items in competitive play, and what change you would make to the game. Each answer is expected to be a paragraph or more, and if we like your answer's we follow up with a Q&A. An example Q&A for this game might be:

1. Analyze the following match-ups under competitive settings, with both players being equally skilled, on Final Destination:
Ryu vs. Goku
Lucario vs. Mario
Mach Rider vs. Knuckles

2. Sort the following stages into Neutral, Counterpick, or Ban:
(List 3-6 stages here, with a good mix of stage categories)

3. Define the following terms:
DI
Wave Dash
Stage Striking
Metagame
Combo

Each member of the CBR may post a few questions like these, occasionally throwing in questions referring back to the original series (ex. the Wave Dash reference). Each of the match-ups, we expect about two paragraphs, very detailed and in-depth. The stages we only expect a brief explanation of why the stage is there, unless asked for more detail, and for the definitions, just a simple definition, probably the shortest ones to answer. An applicant should post both correctly and thoroughly, and show good communication skills. The Back Room wants players who are both knowledgeable and dedicated, don't mind going into heavy detail, can convey their thoughts clearly, and provide strong arguments for their points

[Dettadeus]

If we had those kinds of requirements for a Crusade Back Room, I don't think anyone here would make it in.

Maybe it could be more of an invitation kind of thing, like one of the devs says, "This person should be allowed into the back room", then the other devs say, "Oh that sounds like a great idea" then the person is invited in. Something like that would probably work better.

[perfecthell4]

Or just an easier application. You wouldn't want too many invites like that, could lead to abuse of power, and a public application is good because when the new player enters, all the current members know why he is in, and are certain of his qualifications. It adds to the mutual respect present in a Back Room.

We may also receive some BR members from the SFBR, they are being made aware of this. That could really help to get things rolling if 2 or 3 of them came over.

[falcon8r]

I am glad someone suggested this. I have been trying to sway the discussions more in a technical direction, but whenever that happens, fewer people post...

One of the main goals of recent development for the game has been to tweak the current roster, since it has a few balance issues. I am also open to intelligent suggestions.

So, I am automatically in the BR, right? ;D

[perfecthell4]

Of course. I think a main point to be addressed is the application process. A smaller community means less competition, and therefore an easier application process, but to what extent? The application can't be TOO easy, we still need to enforce a quality acceptance policy to keep the BR top notch, even if that means small. I understand those questions are not easy, but that is the point in the first place, a traditional qualified Back Room member should be able to answer those questions. Perhaps just an easier follow-up Q&A? I see nothing wrong with the application itself, it's the follow-up questions that are the difficult part. Maybe just ask less of them, and be more lenient on answers than the SFBR. But again i stress, not TOO lenient, or the discussions within the BR will be worthless. A 5 member BR having intelligent discussions is much better than a 20 member BR in which no one really knows what they are talking about.

[Werekill]

The harder the application, the better. We can make decisions based on the quality of the answer; there doesn't have to be a single "right" answer. But yeah, we need to definitely be a little strict on it.

Also, activity shouldn't make much of a difference. Choknater on SWF has 20k posts, but he definitely isn't in the BBR, lol.

[perfecthell4]

Well yes, that's what I was saying before, activity alone is no determining factor. It is helpful though, in conjunction with competitive knowledge

[El Maiz]

Mar 28, 2011 18:45:34 GMT -5 perfecthell4 said:

1. Analyze the following match-ups under competitive settings, with both players being equally skilled, on Final Destination:
Ryu vs. Goku
Lucario vs. Mario
Mach Rider vs. Knuckles

2. Sort the following stages into Neutral, Counterpick, or Ban:
(List 3-6 stages here, with a good mix of stage categories)

3. Define the following terms:
DI
Wave Dash
Stage Striking
Metagame
Combo

Should I do these? I could do these real easy.

i.e.

1. Mach Rider vs Knuckles: While Mach Rider has what seems to be an obvious advantage here, due to his speed, he will have a hard time killing Knuckles because of his insane recovery. and Knuckles, after a kill with his great smashes, should have a chance to slightly charge his special attack, wich could easily punish Mach's Fsmash or Dspecial on dodge. Mach Rider's bike would also be difficult to utilize, due to the fact that while Mach is technically faster, Knuckles is overall more mobile with his glide. Can't finish now, bedtime.


3. DI stands for Directional Influence, Which is while caught in the hitlag of a move, usually a smash, you hold a direction to slightly influence the angle you fly at. This does not mean that you can reduce the knockback from, say, Fox's Up smash by holding down, it means that you could make your character go up and slightly to the right or up and slightly to the left.


See? Easy.

[perfecthell4]

Actually, with DI you can reduce knockback momentum. Directional Influence also effects more than just time spent in hit lag, it also applies to some recovery moves for increased recovery, among other things. And that was only one defined, how about the others?

Also, those were example questions, not meant to be answered here......but if you like, you can continue. The feedback might be useful come application time.

[falcon8r]

Mar 28, 2011 22:00:44 GMT -5 perfecthell4 said:

Actually, with DI you can reduce knockback momentum. Directional Influence also effects more than just time spent in hit lag, it also applies to some recovery moves for increased recovery, among other things. And that was only one defined, how about the others?

Also, those were example questions, not meant to be answered here......but if you like, you can continue. The feedback might be useful come application time.

Well, in SSBC, Repeat Boy's answer for DI is technically correct.

FYIs:
- There is not Smash DI in SSBC. However, you can heavily influence the trajectory of [some] low-knockback launches by using the directional keys. The most obvious examples of this are DIing out of Smart Bomb explosions and some multi-hitting moves like Mario's Up B. Many attacks in the game have a unique DI factor that affects DI-ability. For example, most Final Smashes are not DI-able at all (with obvious exceptions such as Mario Finale, Super Sonic, etc.).
- DI either affects weak-knockback attacks, in which you can DI in any direction, or strong-knockback attacks, in which you can DI only (roughly) perpendicular to the angle of launch. You CAN NOT alter the stun or hitlag time of any attack by DI-ing.
- Critical Hits are caused on a "Counter Hit" that hits with precise aim. A Counter Hit is an attack that interrupts and opponent's attack by hitting the opponent. Critical Hits cause 1% extra damage, 6 extra hitlag frames on the enemy, and 4 extra hit stun frames. They are truly only useful for combos at low damage percentages and for the coolness factor.

Well, that's off-topic... Ahem. As for the questions, I think describing technical terms is frankly not the highest priority item, since many of the people who play this game the most may in any likelihood have never played Smash Bros. competitively before. I only began doing so when Brawl came out. I didn't know what SHFFL was until 2008. However, I have been a Smash enthusiast since the beginning. I got the N64 game the same year it came out and played it every week, just about, until the time the GameCube came out. Techniques? Bah. I just played for fun. But, I still ended up being one of the best Melee players I personally know (I can body just about anybody in Statesboro, but that's not saying too much ;D).

I am not bragging about my skillz (which still need a lot of work, I know), just trying to illustrate that you don't need a competitive Smash history to be knowledgable about how the game works, and thus be of help on this project. So, with that in mind, we might do with some more general questions with broader possibilities for answers. We can still be strict about selection, even with open-ended questions.

[perfecthell4]

I disagree. On the competitive tournament level, players use a lot of AT's. Metagame revolves around them, and using certain moves a lot more than others or playing a specific way per character to optimize the characters performance. Metagame is the basis of tiers, and a fundamental part of stage legality as well. It is also extremely important in rule set discussion. Competitive knowledge is a must imo, otherwise our tier and rule lists will not be as accurate as they could have been. You don't have to have competed in a tournament before, but you still need to understand competitive smash. That's the point of a Back Room in the first place, a way to discuss competitive smash. It also helps for smoother discussion when everyone knows the proper terms for different techniques and attack types, we wouldn't want to have to waste time explaining to someone what a sex kick is, or what AT stands for, the definition of camping as applied to smash, and other things like that. These should already be known if you expect to discuss in a Back Room.

[El Maiz]

He didn't say that they were not important. He just said they were not the MOST important.

[perfecthell4]

What I'm saying is that I believe it IS the most important. That's what a Back Room is, competitive discussion. Being good at the game is not very important at all. What matters is that you can intelligently discuss the game based on a competitive mindset. Being able to completely shut out the CPU means nothing if you can't describe the match in writing, with proper terminology. On the other hand, you could be in the Back Room, and be pretty bad at actually playing the game. As long as you understand how things work and can talk theoretically about matchups and metagames, even if you can't apply it yourself. We have members like that in the SFBR, and they tend to make extremely helpful contributions. We also have seen applicants who can play the game well, but got rejected. What's most important is game theory and a full understanding of the competitive mindset. Some of that is included in falcon's post, and I'm not disregarding that, but I do stand by the necessity of competitive knowledge over application.

Also, I understand not everyone knows these terms ahead of time. But we are on the internet, and applicants are given plenty of time to answer questions. The point of this is to allow them to do research. Are they dedicated enough to spend time surfing the internet for the definition of a Wave Dash? Do they have the time to play some matches to collect data about a particular matchup? Will they take the time to study a certain stage? If they will do it for the app, we figure they will do it in the BR too. You don't have to know everything ahead of time, but you have to be willing to learn on your own.

[Werekill]

In other words, knowledge of the game is better than experience with the game in a lot of ways.

PH, you should get on the chat, lol.

[El Maiz]

He didn't say that competitive knowledge wasn't the most important.

He said that competitive TERMINOLOGY wasn't the most important.

Try reading his post again.