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Post by Dettadeus on Mar 31, 2011 18:50:54 GMT -5
People don't vote on a tier list. It is based on tournament results. There are no tournaments for Crusade, so Detta is just placing them as he sees fit, and when we give him a suggestion for change and good reason, he moves them after playing against the character again as well. Correction added. At this point, it's the closest thing to a tier list possible, hence why I call it a tier list. Yes, I was the single person who made it, but I took into account the opinions of other people's rankings, placement suggestions and the like. And considering the fact that Falcon doesn't really voice any objections to it either somewhat reinforces it. I did base it off of the CPU, which therefore eliminates the metagame aspect, but some character placements are just obvious whether or not it's a CPU behind the wheel. Take Ganondorf for example. Even on Intense, the CPU for Ganondorf isn't very good because the character itself isn't very good. Putting the most skilled smash player at the controller wouldn't change much, since Ganondorf just has too much working against him. |
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Post by Zeldasmash on Mar 31, 2011 19:19:57 GMT -5
S TIER:
1. Goku
2. Krystal
3. Ryu/Evil Ryu
4. Bomberman
A Tier
5. Ristar
6. Toon Link
7. Tails
8. Fox
9. Saki
10. Jigglypuff
11. MK
12. Mach Rider
13. Link
14. Waluigi
15. Lucario
B Tier
16. ZSS
17. Toad
18. Mario
19. Captain Falcon
20. Lucas
21. Luigi
C Tier
22. Pikachu
23. Power Suit Samus
24. Ness
D Tier
25. Wario
26. Peach
27. Sonic
28. Knuckles
E Tier
29. Megaman
30. Snake
F Tier
31. Kirby
32. Yoshi
S Tier
A Tier = High Tier
B Tier
C Tier \
= Mid Tier
D Tier /
E Tier \
= Low Tier
F Tier /
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Post by Dettadeus on Mar 31, 2011 19:38:30 GMT -5
...this isn't really the place to post that...
This thread isn't the back room, we're discussing what the back room would be like.
Also, that looks almost exactly like mine besides a few placements in the middle area.
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Post by perfecthell4 on Mar 31, 2011 19:42:28 GMT -5
People don't vote on a tier list. It is based on tournament results. Tier lists and tournaments have no relation, aside from tournament rule sets being kept in mind for all match ups. Do you honestly believe that if a top level player won a tournament with Ganondorf, he would move up on the tier list? Yes, people do vote on Tier lists. Those people are the members of the Smash Back Room. Tier lists are based off of character metagame, not tournaments. |
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Post by Zeldasmash on Mar 31, 2011 19:47:55 GMT -5
I apologize then.
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Post by El Maiz on Mar 31, 2011 20:23:10 GMT -5
I'm not that stupid. I'm saying that tier lists are based on how well people use them competitively. Such as in tournaments.
Just looking at what people SAY isn't anywhere near as helpful as looking at how people USE the character.
Lrn2logic.
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Post by perfecthell4 on Mar 31, 2011 20:32:36 GMT -5
I'm not that stupid. I'm saying that tier lists are based on how well people use them competitively. Such as in tournaments. You said they were based off tournament results, which is similar to what you are saying here, which is not correct. It is based off of metagame. It's not based off of how well people ACTUALLY use them, just how well they theoretically COULD use them if they were the perfect player in all aspects.Just looking at what people SAY isn't anywhere near as helpful as looking at how people USE the character. Actually, metagame theory is much more useful than application, because a tier list compares characters under competitive settings with players performing at maximum possible metagame potential. With theory, we can discuss the matches with perfectly equal players, but not in real matches, where skills will inevitably vary.Lrn2logic. Next time, at least make an attempt to be mature. No need for flame. |
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Post by Werekill on Mar 31, 2011 20:41:59 GMT -5
I completely agree, PH.
I think that we'll get along juuust fine. :3
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Post by El Maiz on Mar 31, 2011 20:49:39 GMT -5
I do not believe that they base it on potential that they have no idea if people can actually use it. If they do, they must be really stupid. I'm pretty much going to treat those last few posts as lies.
Even on the slim, slim chance that this is how they do it for Brawl, why the HECK would we do it for Crusade?
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Post by perfecthell4 on Mar 31, 2011 20:55:15 GMT -5
^ This is exactly why I believe in a Back Room
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Post by El Maiz on Mar 31, 2011 20:59:27 GMT -5
And I assume that by that you mean to keep "idiots" like me out of the competitive discussion.
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Post by Dettadeus on Mar 31, 2011 21:39:10 GMT -5
And I assume that by that you mean to keep "idiots" like me out of the competitive discussion. K, enough of this. You're all taking things way out of context, and it's turning into a flame war. Maiz, if you don't like the idea of a back room, then you don't have to participate in discussion of it. If you do, then do some research on Smash Wiki like the rest of us do and you'll be all set (probably). So I guess this is actually happening? If so, how long do you think it would be until it's up and running and taking applications? |
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Post by perfecthell4 on Mar 31, 2011 22:08:58 GMT -5
Werekill said there were other things to attend to first before starting the CBR, but I don't think it's too far off.
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Post by falcon8r on Mar 31, 2011 22:46:46 GMT -5
I think it will eventually be very helpful to have a Back Room. For instance, tonight, I am looking at a lot of the "underpowered" and "overpowered" characters (according to the tier lists and other feedback) and tweaking them, but I do want some input... Although there's not really a good place to do so except by making a random thread or sending out mass PMs to specific people (which I have done before).
Here's a good example: I'm working on Snake, since I am aware most players find him overly difficult to play in Crusade for some reason. Here are some changes I've been considering (some of which I have already implemented):
Uthrow is now combo-friendly, with less knockback
Dthrow now has slight hitstun growth
Dash Attack now does 11% damage and has slightly lower launch angle, making it a better edge guard set up
Bair sweetspot has higher knockback, and delayed hitboxes cause more damage
Uair has considerably higher knockback
Nikita has 4 frames faster activation and has 7 frames faster recovery when cancelled
Lower landing lag on Bair, Nair, Dair?
What do you think? would be what I'd ask the Back Room. If you want to discuss it now, we can. Or in the Snake boards.
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Post by perfecthell4 on Mar 31, 2011 22:58:14 GMT -5
Sounds like some good changes to me, If anyone wants to discuss it though, I'd take it to the snake thread, this is a thread for the back room idea, don't want to make a habit of bringing other topics into here, unless it pertains to the back room functions discussion
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Post by falcon8r on Apr 1, 2011 1:13:02 GMT -5
Okay, cool. Glad you like the changes, since I went ahead and finished them anyways.  But this was just an example. I feel that we need Back Room threads for individual character changes so that discussions like this one can be organized. |
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Post by El Maiz on Apr 1, 2011 7:06:59 GMT -5
Why do we need a back Room?
There are only, like, four people here that join in discussion, other than the mods.
We HAVE a Back Room already.
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Post by Dettadeus on Apr 1, 2011 7:44:38 GMT -5
The difference between this forum and a back room is that this forum is casual discussion while a back room would be competitive. Falcon and I are two of the few that actually talk about competitive strategies on a somewhat regular basis (mainly due to our creating maining guides). When we get into a competitive discussion, someone else often joins in and it turns back to casual.
The point of the back room would be to have everything be uninterrupted competitive discussion to allow for metagame development, among other things.
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Post by El Maiz on Apr 1, 2011 16:01:40 GMT -5
The game isn't finished. Metagame will become obsolete again and again.
This just isn't needed.
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Post by falcon8r on Apr 1, 2011 16:11:45 GMT -5
The game isn't finished. Metagame will become obsolete again and again. This just isn't needed. Well, it might help provide feedback to improve the game, if nothing else. |
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But this was just an example. I feel that we need Back Room threads for individual character changes so that discussions like this one can be organized.