|
|
Post by perfecthell4 on Mar 30, 2011 17:08:38 GMT -5
What you're not accounting for is the other players skill. You can "use it right" all you want, but a skilled opponent is going to bait you into thinking it's the right moment to counter, than punish the attempt. Again, High risk, high reward. You have to think about both players' sides. When comparing characters, you hypothetically compare two players both performing at maximum possible level for their characters. The Ryu player would thus be perfect at timing the counter, but the opponent would be equally perfect at bait and punish. Therefore, neither player gains advantage.
|
|
|
|
Post by El Maiz on Mar 30, 2011 17:42:06 GMT -5
Again. That's like saying that Projectiles aren't good becaus they can be punished with, say, a Mario Finale.
|
|
|
|
Post by falcon8r on Mar 30, 2011 17:46:11 GMT -5
I agree that Ryu is very basic, and therefore a tad predictable. However, the options he has are above-average, in my opinion. FYI, if you want to make better use of his fireballs, do one in the air just before landing to cancel its ending animation. Then, you can throw another from the ground or walk behind it, using it as a moving shield.
|
|
|
|
Post by perfecthell4 on Mar 30, 2011 21:26:52 GMT -5
@falcon: Yep, knew about that one. Still, many characters have a way around that, going back to mario, he can get a fireball out pretty quickly and the Hadoken is gone. It is a better use for it however than just spamming them.
@repeat: No, you can't lump all projectiles into a single category. They are all different, all have different properties, some function or move in different ways, have different start-up/ending lag, different priority, different knock back or hitstun, different damage, speed, etc. Counters on the other hand, don't vary in function, and therefore a counter strategy develops to them (no pun intended). Projectiles on the other hand are dealt with on a by move basis. Simply shielding will not help you for every single projectile in the game, all the time. Bait and punish on counters will, no matter the character (if they have one).
|
|
|
|
Post by El Maiz on Mar 31, 2011 6:46:09 GMT -5
Except that some counters last longer, or have less lag.
I still don't agree.
|
|
|
|
Post by falcon8r on Mar 31, 2011 11:36:53 GMT -5
Except that some counters last longer, or have less lag. I still don't agree. Well, to be honest, all the counters in the game now are pretty similar, they just have different properties. Evil Ryu's is probably the easiest to use, since its invincibility and counter ability begin on frames 9 and 11 respectively and lasts through frame 37, leaving only 8 frames of vulnerability. (The entire animation lasts 45 frames.) Ryu is also fully invincible during his Shoryuken counter (until the third hit). On the sweep kick counter, he's invincible until the hit. Lucario's is probably the worst counter overall, despite having very good knockback when powered up with Aura. The invincibility and counter ability begin on frames 11 and 12 respectively, and they end on frame 39, leaving 11 frames of vulnerability at the end of the 50-frame move. The hit is kinda wonky and doesn't always connect against airborne foes. In version 0.6, the invincibility on the counter lasts until two frames before the kick, making it risky against many multi-hitting or long-lasting moves, such as Toad's Down Smash. In 1.0, this has been fixed - it now lasts until two frames after the hitbox. Peach's counter is the most unsafe, but it's definitely effective. The invincibility and counter ability begin on frames 10 and 12 respectively, and they end on frame 45, leaving a very punishable 24 frames of vulnerability at the end of the 69-frame move. The standard spore-spraying counter is fully invincible until its last hit and deals the most damage of any counter in the game by a fair margin. The explosive counter that happens randomly has less invincibility (ending on the same frame as the hitbox starts) but does more knockback. What's really great about this counter is the fact that it has a ton of range, rarely missing from any angle, and it turns Peach around when she's attacked from behind. It's also more powerful than you might expect from a Toadsworth.  That said, the moves are all still really similar, and punishing them should be done similarly for each. All of them are vulnerable to grabs and projectiles, and all have some vulnerability at the beginning and end. With Peach's, you have a little more time to punish it, but if you're hit by it, you'll pay a price! |
|
|
|
Post by El Maiz on Mar 31, 2011 16:12:11 GMT -5
Wait, so you're saying that having a counter doesn't make anyone better?
Neither do most attacks then.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dettadeus on Mar 31, 2011 17:08:57 GMT -5
About the counter thing:
This is why, as Marth, I do a very short jump towards my opponent as they begin to attack, then use his counter. It comes out in, what, 6 frames? Something like that. It's fast.
But Marth's counter is one of the best in the first place, so that doesn't make the largest difference.
Anyways... back to Ryu...
|
|
|
|
Post by DGN on Mar 31, 2011 17:12:51 GMT -5
Marth's counter is the sole reason I secondary him.
Never attack with any other move. :3
Ryu's counter I think is a bit different.
There hasn''t been any counter before that charges.
On the scarce times I play as him, I wait until the opponent comes charging in, then release it at the right time.
|
|
|
|
Post by El Maiz on Mar 31, 2011 17:14:17 GMT -5
Ryu's counter doesn't charge...
|
|
|
|
Post by DGN on Mar 31, 2011 17:22:45 GMT -5
charge isn't really the right word.
What I mean is you can hold the button for a certain limit.
If you're hit, the opponent gets hit.
If not, and the opponent just waits there, you can hit.
|
|
|
|
Post by El Maiz on Mar 31, 2011 17:28:43 GMT -5
No. If Ryu's counter doesn't get hit, he doesn't hit.
|
|
|
|
Post by DGN on Mar 31, 2011 17:29:28 GMT -5
Really? I could've sworn you could make it longer or shorter.
maybe I'm thinking of Evil Ryu?
|
|
|
|
Post by GoldenYuiitusin on Mar 31, 2011 17:41:57 GMT -5
I would've prefered that straight kick move used in TvC than a counter....
But I have Evil Ryu and his aggressiveness, so I'm fine.
|
|
|
|
Post by El Maiz on Mar 31, 2011 17:44:48 GMT -5
Regular Ryu does not have a counter.
Evil Ryu does.
I think that regular should get the donkey kick, and Evil should have his heel kick instead of Tatsu.
|
|
|
|
Post by GoldenYuiitusin on Mar 31, 2011 17:48:42 GMT -5
*facepalm* I got the two mixed up; it's been a while since I played as either Ryu....
But I still prefer Evil Ryu.
|
|
|
|
Post by El Maiz on Mar 31, 2011 17:56:51 GMT -5
I feel the same.
I think that he should get the axe kick from AE, but I like his counter. I think that it should replace Tatsu instead.
|
|
|
|
Post by GoldenYuiitusin on Mar 31, 2011 17:58:36 GMT -5
But the Tatsumaki is one of Ryu's (and other Shotos) signature techniques. You can't get rid of it....
|
|
|
|
Post by El Maiz on Mar 31, 2011 18:41:46 GMT -5
Not for regular Ryu. Evil Ryu.
Would represent his latest appearance and further differentiate him from Ryu.
|
|
|
|
Post by GoldenYuiitusin on Mar 31, 2011 19:59:37 GMT -5
But the Tatsumaki is one of Ryu's (and other Shotos) signature techniques. You can't get rid of it.... This includes Akuma, who Evil Ryu's fighting style is based on. Aside from that, it still IS a signature technique. Where as Ryu's style is a watered down version of an assassination style, Evil Ryu's is essentially the true version. |
|
