My problems with the Roster

[-Dr.MarioX-]

They represent the Pokemon games. You don't get much better than that.

Gengar, Scizor, and Aggron are really popular, very popular.

They have tons of moves.

They are really unique Pokemon and not like the ordinary starting wild Pokemon.

[Dettadeus]

Gengar should have a 1. We have a ton of 1st gen reps already, and we'd all prefer Meowth if we HAD to have another 1st gen rep.

No, no they're not. Gengar maybe, but not the other two. Show some frigging proof.

Granted, ALL Pokemon do besides Magikarp and the low-level bug types.

Granted, but none of them even bring new types to the table. They're not unique in the sense of Zoroark.

[DGN]

Yes, but the 1st generation has already been represented many times before, and at least one of all of their types has been used before.

They are less popular than someone like Meowth or May.

Most neutral moves have to be made up, as with most chars.

They're not Leaf Samurai or Kung Fu Flaming Chicken, though. XD

[-Dr.MarioX-]

This is not in comparison to other characters, okay? That should be easy to understand.

Gengar has a 5 because he comes from POKEMON, A GOOD GAME.

Proof Scizor was popular- Super Smash Bros. Melee, he appeared from a Pokeball and was a trophy.

Aggron was one of the fully evolved icons of Generation III, along with Metagross, Salamence, etc.

But they're still unique. Quit comparing characters. That's not how it works.

Okay, so we've represented Generation I before. Should we take out some of the Zelda characters because most of them represent Ocarina of Time?

QUIT COMPARING CHARACTERS. If we did that, Mario would be the only character in the game.

Well, your Pokemon aren't Big Tongued Ghosts, Iron Clawed Bugs, or Giant Metal Rock Dragons, now are they?

[StayPuft]

EDIT: Ninja'd by everyone XD

Alright, I'll say what i think one more time.

Yes, they represent the Pokémon series. Every character from Pokémon could.

They are popular, I'll give you that. But think... are they as popular as Meowth, who has had a TON of screentime in the anime? Or as Mudkip, who has been voted the most popular Pokémon in Europe?

A lot of Pokémon have a ton of different moves, except for those like Wurmple or Magikarp. TMs, level-up, HMs, Move tutors, egg moves, almost every Pokémon can have some sort of decent moveset if one takes the time to think about the moves available for each Pokémon.

Gengar and Scizor, I'll give you are unique. Aggron a bit less, cause Aggron isn't THAT different from pokemon like Rhyperior, etc. At least the way I see it. Actually, it could be said that a lot of Pokémon are unique in their own way.

I still don't see why Rival Trainer should be in over characters like Meowth or May... *sigh* at least change the trainer, then. Gary has never used any of those Pokés, if you're set on including those three Pokémon. Change the trainer to an ace trainer or something. It'd make tons more sense than having Gary/Blue...

[-Dr.MarioX-]

I'm not sure. We could change it to Gold/Ethan, but it would just be"Pokemon Trainer" again. That's why we called it "Rival Trainer".

[StayPuft]

I'm just saying that an Ace Trainer or something would make loads more sense than having Gary/Blue with the Pokémon. Ace Trainers usually have "strong" Pokémon like the ones you're suggesting, anyway.

[GoldenYuiitusin]

More slander, DMX? Seriously?

I won't "get used" to a crap idea. There, I said it. Rival Trainer is nothing but a load of crap added in on BS reasons and biased decisions.

"Represent the games"? How? They are 3 random Pokemon that aren't significant in ANY way. You know which Pokemon better represents the games? Snorlax, because of being that infamous roadblock in multiple games. Gyarados, because of being one of the strongest Pokemon after it evolves from one of the weakest and most common, and also playing a role in G/S/C/HG/SS. Any Legendary that appears on a cover, because the game focuses on them in some way. Arceus, for being considered the "God" of Pokemon, and for currently being the most popular Pokemon in Japan. (yes, cute little Pikachu is no longer on top.) Does that make them deserving? NO. But the point is that they have FAR more signifigance and better represent the games to the three you chose.

"really popular, very popular"? You need to take the bias stick out of your @$$, because they aren't as popular as you think they are, save for maybe Gengar. Scizor loses a lot of it's popularity because of it's 4X weakness to Fire. No respectable Trainer wants to use a Pokemon that is exceptionally weak to a common type. And Aggron? Loses popularity due to luggish Speed and a 4X weakness. You can say "ROCK POLISH" all you want, Aggron is easily taken down by Earthquake, a very common move. Not only that, but Aggron has a 4X weakness to Ground. And since Earthquake is a common move, Aggron is just plain screwed.

"They have tons of moves"? So does EVERY frigging Pokemon other than pathetic ones like Magikarp, Unown, etc. This point is moot.

"Unique Pokemon, not like starting wild Pokemon"? I will say that their unique, but that's all they've got going for them. That, and they don't even belong the Trainer that you're adding. Hell, even if you replaced Blue with an Ace Trainer, it'd make more sense. And no one suggested ANY starting wild Pokemon (like Rattata, Pidgey, Zigzagoon Bidoof, Patrat etc.), so that point is ALSO moot and unneccessary.

Just face it; NO ONE likes Rival Trainer but you, Phantom, and I think ensane.

[El Maiz]

If it has those characters, he wouldn't be Gary Oak.

Well, at least you aren't flaming us anymore.

[GoldenYuiitusin]

And another point, even if you changed the Trainer to Ethan with those Pokemon, it STILL would be the same problem.
And why name them "Pokemon Trainer" or "Rival Trainer" anyway? They have NAMES you know. This is what pissed me off in Brawl too. His name is Red, not Pokemon Trainer, Sakurai!

[StayPuft]

Well, Sakurai has made mistakes.

Like Captain Ganon, or tripping.

YOU MUST RECOVER

[El Maiz]

The problem is NOT the trainer.
Gary Oak being in Crusade is quite fine with me.
The problems are the pairing of the Pokémon with him, and the Pokémon themselves.
Gengar has a representation of about two.
A popularity of about four.

We should NOT count Moveset Potential for Pokémon. We should have it out of 15, as all Pokémon but the aforementioned ones would get fives, boosting their scores without reason.

[GoldenYuiitusin]

May 21, 2011 11:19:41 GMT -5 StayPuft said:

Well, Sakurai has made mistakes.

Like Captain Ganon, or tripping.

YOU MUST RECOVER

Honestly, Rival Trainer is worse than ANYTHING that Sakurai did wrong.

Also, how could I miss this:
"Gengar has a 5 because he comes from POKEMON, A GOOD GAME."
Yeah, bias at it's BEST.
"DURR GAME IS OSM I LUV IT CHARCTR GETS 5 AUTOMTICLY"
With so many Pokemon reps, representation is lowered. Same with Mario characters. Gengar also represents the 1st Generation, which is already heavily represented, and other than being the first Generation, Gengar hasn't done much compared to the others in Crusade and Meowth or Mew. The only one that's done less is Ivysaur, but Ivysaur was thrown in to even out Squirtle and Charizard.

"Proof Scizor was popular- Super Smash Bros. Melee, he appeared from a Pokeball and was a trophy."
One of the WORST points I have seen here. You do realize that at the time, 2nd Generation was new, so they added a whole bunch of 2nd Gen characters to emphasise it? And notice that Scizor is not in Brawl, nor is he a trophy? Lemme guess "SAKRAI IZ STUPID SCIZOR SHUDVE BEEN IN BRAWL"

"Aggron was one of the fully evolved icons of Generation III, along with Metagross, Salamence, etc."
But still lacks in popularity compared to Blaziken or Gardevoir (another Pokemon you find to be a "ridiculous choice" possibly due to it being another Psychic type), or even MUDKIP. Don't you know that Mudkip is the most popular Pokemon in Europe?

"But they're still unique. Quit comparing characters. That's not how it works."

Err...yeah. It is how it works. What's your definition of how something works? You add something you want and people have to deal with it regardless of how pointless it is?

"Okay, so we've represented Generation I before. Should we take out some of the Zelda characters because most of them represent Ocarina of Time?"
I'm wrong. THIS is THE WORST point I've seen. Obviously not, because Zelda and Ganon actually have importance in their series, unlike Gengar. The only acceptable 1st Gen is Meowth. No others.

"QUIT COMPARING CHARACTERS. If we did that, Mario would be the only character in the game."
Fail less, please.

"Well, your Pokemon aren't Big Tongued Ghosts, Iron Clawed Bugs, or Giant Metal Rock Dragons, now are they?"

Now THIS is fanboyism at it's best. I realize that Generic did something like this prior to this post, but you are a Dev. This is unbecomming of a Dev. And it shows that you don't even know what Aggron is. Aggron is a DINOSAUR not a DRAGON.



Seriously, don't make any more arguments and leave the arguments to Phantom. He actually makes smart arguments and will provide an intelligent debate.

[-Dr.MarioX-]

Well, you played Brawl and there's 3 problems mentioned in that game right there. You've only mentioned 1 problem in Crusade, so it can't be that bad.

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Read above edit,
and seriously you are an idiot. I've named FOUR problems, or did you miss the beginning of the thread?

Not only that, but it's a problem that the majority of us have. And like I said, I took the idea to other places, they disliked it as well.
I haven't taken it to McCleodGaming, but maybe I should. See what THEY have to say about it.

As I said in the previous post, leave the arguing to Phantom. You suck at it.

[Dettadeus]

May 21, 2011 10:56:34 GMT -5 -Dr.MarioX- said:

This is not in comparison to other characters, okay? That should be easy to understand.

But we're saying there are other characters that are more deserving.

Gengar has a 5 because he comes from POKEMON, A GOOD GAME.

No, Pokemon is a great game. You have that all wrong. ;D
The problem is we already have a ton of 1st gen reps, and we keep telling you this.

Proof Scizor was popular- Super Smash Bros. Melee, he appeared from a Pokeball and was a trophy.

Ok. See, this is what you need. Evidence. Now that you have provided it you are a slightly more credible source. The more evidence you provide for your opinions, the more credible you are and the less likely we are to argue with you.

Aggron was one of the fully evolved icons of Generation III, along with Metagross, Salamence, etc.

Granted, that makes sense. But there are still more popular Pokemon than Aggron. IMO, Flygon could make more sense as a 3rd gen rep than Aggron because it actually brings new types into the roster and has a very unique design, ability and moveset. However, this still wouldn't make sense on Gary Oak.

But they're still unique. Quit comparing characters. That's not how it works.

It quite often is the case that it works just like that, actually.

Okay, so we've represented Generation I before. Should we take out some of the Zelda characters because most of them represent Ocarina of Time?

No, because this is comparing apples to oranges. The LoZ characters are recurring, and most show up in every game (Link, Zelda, Ganondorf, so on and so forth), whereas Pokemon really only show up in one part of the series until you get the National Dex (save for Pikachu and a few others).

QUIT COMPARING CHARACTERS. If we did that, Mario would be the only character in the game.

You've already said this what, three times in this post? And no, he wouldn't, because there's all the vets from other smash games

Well, your Pokemon aren't Big Tongued Ghosts, Iron Clawed Bugs, or Giant Metal Rock Dragons, now are they?

No, but our Pokemon at least make sense as choices.

EDIT: Oh right, I entirely forgot that you only base the Popularity score off of fan art. I still think that's a horrible system.

[ensane]

DMX, as an alternative can you find three Pokemon belonging to the same trainer that are different? Maybe there's something else you also like. At least try please? I actually like Gengar and Scizor, but I have to agree they don't make much sense as is.

[DGN]

...So many posts, I can't argue anymore, XD
@golden, yes, I did make a post a bit like that, but I ended it with an XD so it was kind of a joke. XD
Also, about DMX talking about Traveler's Tales, as far as I can see, the only original character was released on the Genesis. Not on a Nintendo System.
They've helped for games for Sega. Not for Nintendo.

Also, I found a few more things I'm not fond of.

No new Fire Emblem character. Really? They use weapons that we've never seen before, for example, Hector(who would represent Lyn's game, that hasn't been represented yet) uses an axe. We don't have one char in the game that uses an axe. Caeda, who represents the newest game, uses a spear, and a Pegasus. No one uses a spear yet. No one uses a Pegasus. Plus, she'd add another female to the game, which we heavily need. Of course, there's always the possibility of Lyn, who would represent her own game, unlike the other chars, and is a female, but we already have enough sword users.

No new EarthBound rep. Not even the most likely, and probably the most unique, Porky? The only one that was actually in smash, and would be the only one to attack with a spider mech, command pig units, etc.? Not Ninten, who represents the start of the series, could use different moves from the other chars, and who's really only problem is appearance? Seriously, there's a problem here.
EDIT: Also, Golden, Aggron not only has a 4x weakness to ground, but he has one to fighting too.

[SmashKing201]

My issue with this rival trainer is the idea of even considering having a 2nd trainer. Meowth is the most reasonable and favorite choice hands down

[GoldenYuiitusin]

DGN: Not only would Hector represent Lyn's game, but he would represent Roy's game as well. Hector has been in two games, like Ike. I sincerely disagree with using Caeda, because the game she "represents" is a remake of a previous game, Another game she's already been in.
And Aggron has a 4X weakness to Fighting as well? I forgot that Steel was weak against Fighting. Anyways, that should seal it's fate in popularity. Why would anyone use a sluggish creature with a double weakness to TWO types? Hell, Flygon is a better choice. Lighter than Aggron, has TWO types that AREN'T represented, is a fast, large character, and played a role in the 6th movie to fight against the Fake Groudon.
But I don't want Flygon EITHER.