My problems with the Roster

[El Maiz]

May 20, 2011 7:34:43 GMT -5 -Dr.MarioX- said:

Just because you all hate something doesn't mean the other five thousand don't.

EXACTLY.
Just because WE hate Rival trainer, that doesn't mean the other five thousand dozen DO NOT HATE HIM.

See wut ah did dere?

[ensane]

Lol at DMX grammar fail. But please stop using unknown players as an example unless you can provide proof of their opinion (like a survey). The forum pretty much represents as close to a random sampling of your fans as you'll ever get.

To be honest I think we are good with the Pokemon characters. We already have 6 unargued Pokemon reps, if no one noticed. (Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Lucario, Mewtwo, Zoroark, Pokemon Trainer)

[Dettadeus]

DMX, you have to learn to stop hiding behind these people you call the players and bring actual proof and facts to the table. Sure, those players might exist, but what do they do for the game in comparison to us? Nothing. All they do is play it. We actually suggest things, report bugs, and help out with stuff. Like Ensane said, we're like a sample size of those "5000 people who play the game". Sure, it may not be the most accurate sample since it's rather small, but it's what you've got.

Also, this thread was not made to hate on you. Golden was simply stating his problems with the roster and seeing who agreed with him. You hopped onto the thread and said everything he said was wrong and provided total crap as reasoning. That's the only reason it seems like we're hating on you. You're a dev who has power over the roster. You should have some common sense when posting and should actually provide thought-out reasons that have hard evidence behind them, like Phantom does. Phantom doesn't use imaginary players as reasons for not changing things, he actually says why the things won't be changed. Perhaps you could learn something from your older brother.

[StayPuft]

May 20, 2011 7:34:43 GMT -5 -Dr.MarioX- said:

I'd like to say that Phantom and I both won't change the roster for 10 people. There are thousands of people that play this game. Lewl wat? Eventually, perhaps, but it'd be more reasonable to say at least a hundred or more. Just because you all hate something doesn't mean the other five thousand don't. The people that play the game and don't come to this forum, well, most of them probably don't even know that you're planning on including Rival Trainer, so they can't really have an opinion on the matter. I'd like you or Phantom (preferably Phantom) to explain fully why Rival Trainer should be in over characters like Meowth or May. If you can actually convice us (which is what we'd like) like Phantom did with Agumon, then we'll back down and stop complaining. But until you prove that Rival trainer is a far superior choice than another Pokemon character being suggested, then you best prepare for us to keep complaining. This means actually doing research about the characters at hand, and pull out specific facts that prove that your Rival Trainer idea is better than a character like Meowth or May. If you don't do this, you'll basically be showing us that your Rival Trainer ISN'T the best choice logically (because you can't/refuse to prove it), but instead that the idea is full of bias and it is just so that some of the devs can have their favorite Pokemon in, while you have convinced yourselves that the idea is actually good.

And Golden, I must ask: Why would you make a thread that seems to hate on me? Is this a grudge of some sort from a previous argument? And it's a little odd for you to make a thread just so you can complain about a roster that is very old and may have just been completely made up. You seem to think this game and the forum revolves around you when it doesn't, but it revolves around the exe file you click to the run the game. I bet you barely click that game at all. inb4 GY rage

Mah comments in the reddish color, bro.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Detta.

[falcon8r]

DMX, I am done trying to argue with you on the thread. These people on the forums are our most dedicated fans, so who better to represent the "players" than these guys?

[sumika]

^

Agree'd. Were trying to make the game better for everyone. Not just ourselves. We know some of our characters wont get in, and we know that. That's why we cling to hope that there will be DLC. We're trying to make the default roster the best it can be. Not ruin it with our Fanboy/girl minds. We're trying to get the roster to where everyone can at least find a few characters they like to play as, from almost ANY company.

[SmashKing201]

May 18, 2011 17:37:07 GMT -5 -Dr.MarioX- said:

Well, first come, first serve, so I'll do Duck Hunt Dog.

Representation: Duck Hunt is one of the biggest classics ever made. It introduced the Zapper and made a big impact on gaming history.
5

Popularity: Oh, that dog. Everyone knows that dog. That laughing Dog just to middle-finger ya whenever you fail, or to choke the living crap out of the ducks you just shot. We all know him and that infamous laugh. Even people outside the gaming community do. Everyone wanted to shoot him too.
5

Viability: Just because Ivysaur worked on 4 legs doesn't mean the Dog can. In fact, there aren't many moves the Dog could actually use. Throwing clay discs and ducks are all that make sense, but he didn't have anything to do with the clay discs.
1.5

Uniqueness: There's not anyone he can be a clone of because there's nothing he can do. Fighting for him is a little unnatural.
1.5

13/20

FINAL SCORE: 65/100
He's not fit for Smash. I love the Duck Hunt Dog and I love Duck Hunt, but being a character is not how he should be represented, but he'll be somewhere...somewhere...

I appreciate that you took the time to grade it. Though here are my thoughts on it.

Representation: 5
I comepletely agree with you. Indeed a classic game that revolutionized and made the Zapper popular.

Popularity: 5
I agree with you on this. An iconic gaming character. Though he is liked or hated for the wrong reasons, I doubt it hurts his popularity.

Viability: 1.5 you said
In a way you make sense, though we are yet to see a Smash character that didnt work out. Now I never got to mention this at all, but Duckhunt Dog can stand on 2 legs and somewhat walk on two legs as well. Ivysaur cant hold anything with this limbs, but Duckhunt Dog can (Ducks and Crutches). What I had in mind would be that he is only on his 2 legs when standing in a Idle position or when tip toeing. He would be on 4 legs when running or doing certain moves. He is a cartoonish Dog. I dont think him being on 2 or 4 legs effect his viability. Now I have to agree that there isnt too much that he can do. But the Ducks & Clay Disk already covers half his Special Attacks, the Smash Attacks are usually made up for many characters to give them a fighting chance, and not to mention that he is a dog, which gives him attacks like scratching, biting, pouncing, or even growling. Also, the Zapper is a good idea since the dog himself & gun represents the 2 elements that made Duck Hunt the memorable game it is today. Now as far as him never using the Clay Disk, remember that Ness & Lucas's moves in Smash were not used by them, but actually borrowed from characters from their series. Star Fox & C.Falcon in or out their respective ships didnt use the moves they have in Smash. Like Golden said, Falcon's moveset was borrowed from what Smash Bros originally was before they threw in Nintendo characters (dont remember the name of the game). So adding the clay disk is a good way to represent that mini-game part of Duck Hunt and gives him a move to work with. I think a 3 or 3.5 is a fair grade for him due to what was mentioned above and the fact that Smash Bros is a very creative game when it comes to moves and fighting style.

Uniqueness: 1.5 you say
I agree that he wont be the most unique character that makes a big difference in the roster moveset wise. The few unique things about him is what he represents and the fact that he cant be a clone, making him a fighter of his own. And could you explain your statement of "fighting for him is unnatural"? For uniqueness I do believe is where his grade is mostly effected, maybe a 3 is fair. I say 1.5 is too low cause we know that he will have moveset of his own that cant really be copied, but yet, it really is no major difference either. 3 sounds fair to me.

Overall:
Many would say that ROB & Mr. GAW are not fit for Smash before they were playable, but yet they were given a chance and worked out very well. He could be fit for Smash if given the chance when you think about it. Potential moveset already made, popularity and representation is up there. I think there is more to Smash than just the potentials of fighting in order to be fitting.

Do you agree Doc on my grading?

Also, Falcon would you like to give a grading also?

On a sidenote, for Rival Trainer. Its not the Pokemon he has that bothers me and others, even though he could have better choices. The issue is just having a 2nd Pokemon Trainer.

[-Dr.MarioX-]

@smashking- I see where you're going. The Dog is just really hard to explain for me, idk why.

@everyone Else
Sure, you guys may point out bugs or something, but does that give you the credibility to decide on parts of the roster? You guys really don't help with the production of the game. In fact, you slow it down with the need for demos and what not. I really don't want to release that demo in the Summer unless we're ready. And we're not near close. If this was a forum where everyone was a programmer/spriter, we'd be near completion and we'd post demos a lot less often.

And honestly, the suggestions here are more like fanboy suggestions than what we decide for the roster. And have you ever checked Crusade outside of the forums? Lots of people play it and find out from OTHER PEOPLE.

You can't make the game better for everyone if you're thinking about yourself and not everyone is going to play this. SSBC has an audience of fan-gamers and hackers (primarily) and it's most likely going to stay that way.

Oh yeah, I haven't heard a single character complaint (with the exception of Goku, but that's going to happen) outside of these forums.

[sumika]

-face palm- Guys, its just a roster of a fan game. Its not like its a big deal. Geeesh.

[El Maiz]

Like you actually checked outside of the forum.

About two or three dozen people play this game. Just so you know.

Also: Picking your three favorite Pokémon to go with a completely unrelated character apparently =/= fanboyism.
Hypocrite.

[DGN]

May 20, 2011 17:20:03 GMT -5 -Dr.MarioX- said:

@smashking- I see where you're going. The Dog is just really hard to explain for me, idk why.

@everyone Else
Sure, you guys may point out bugs or something, but does that give you the credibility to decide on parts of the roster? You guys really don't help with the production of the game. In fact, you slow it down with the need for demos and what not. I really don't want to release that demo in the Summer unless we're ready. And we're not near close. If this was a forum where everyone was a programmer/spriter, we'd be near completion and we'd post demos a lot less often.

And honestly, the suggestions here are more like fanboy suggestions than what we decide for the roster. You're talking about the Minister or Laughing Dog, right? Other people support them, so I wouldn't count them as fanboy chars. And have you ever checked Crusade outside of the forums? Lots of people play it and find out from OTHER PEOPLE. They can just as well say the game is horrid, and not to bother.

You can't make the game better for everyone if you're thinking about yourself and not everyone is going to play this. GAH THE GRAMMAR MISTAKES. SSBC has an audience of fan-gamers and hackers (primarily) That's just Felipe. Just felipe. and it's most likely going to stay that way.But whyever would you want that?

Oh yeah, I haven't heard a single character complaint (with the exception of Goku, but that's going to happen) outside of these forums. Because they don't know about chars like Rival.

Replies in PURPAH.

[SmashKing201]

@dmx: Yes, he seems like a very difficult character to explain, which makes him pretty easy to come up with ways to make him work cause many dont understand what proper way to make him work.

Also, here is something I like to point out that I forgot to mention. You have Mach Rider in the game. Before Crusade, the only 2 things everyone can think of that would work for him is his gun and motorcycle, thus giving the belief that there is no fighting potential and not fitting for Smash. You my friend changed that and proved that there is potential, which you deserve alot of credit for. Now Duckhunt Dog falls in that same category when discussing moveset potentials. He has 2/3 moves that can work just like Mach Rider had. But with creativity, Mach Rider was made to be fitting for Crusade. The same can work with Duckhunt Dog and any other character for that matter. And another thing on a personal note, I got into this forum cause I heard from Golden on youtube that Mach Rider was playable, which later influenced me to check this game out and havent looked back since. Not many would actually think that Duckhunt Dog would be made for a fangame, so the whole Mach Rider thing luring me to Crusade can most likely lure a new fan in if they see an unsuspecting character like Duckhunt Dog playable.

[GoldenYuiitusin]

May 20, 2011 7:34:43 GMT -5 -Dr.MarioX- said:

I'd like to say that Phantom and I both won't change the roster for 10 people. There are thousands of people that play this game. Just because you all hate something doesn't mean the other five thousand don't.

And Golden, I must ask: Why would you make a thread that seems to hate on me? Is this a grudge of some sort from a previous argument? And it's a little odd for you to make a thread just so you can complain about a roster that is very old and may have just been completely made up. You seem to think this game and the forum revolves around you when it doesn't, but it revolves around the exe file you click to the run the game. I bet you barely click that game at all.

Ran out of decent arguments, so you go to slander? I expected better from you DMX. This is a thread with my biggest, almost completely agreed with complaints about a roster that YOU said was official just a few MONTHS ago. 2-3 Months = Very old? I know it isn't the latest one anymore, but from what I know, the complaints still stand, as nothing has been done to change what they are, with the possible exception that Protoman is gone.

Had this been against YOU, this would've been a "Callout Thread", or I would've PMed you.

And I don't think this is about me. On the contrary, you seem to think it's all about YOU and what YOU want and screw the fans. You even said it yourself; you feel that we're idiots despite being your biggest supporters.

And pretty much, there has been only ONE support for Rival Trainer so far other than yourself and Phantom. Hell, even FALCON would rather have someone who makes sense.

And it's not just us; we've been taking the idea around to other places, and not a single person said it was a good idea. They said it'd be cool to play as Gengar or Aggron (no one really cared for Scizor), but they all agreed that it's not good representation. So by majority, people dislike Rival Trainer, not the other way around.

And don't make generalizations. I've been playing the game almost every day, even if it's just for 5 minutes, as I'm constantly adding music and seeing all of the character's attacks (as I do in ALL fighting games). What you have to realize is, that unlike you, I have more important crap to deal with right now with the end of Senior year and getting ready for college. I haven't played much of ANYTHING these past few weeks, so I'm even far behind in Pokemon Black! So just because I don't play the game as often as you FEEL that I should, doesn't mean I don't know my ****. And if you are actually considering Playtime=Importance, then you really are piss-poor at arguments and should go into Debate class when you get an open elective.

And don't talk to US about fanboy suggestions while you have RIVAL TRAINER. There's a word for this, it's called irony.

[ensane]

May 20, 2011 17:33:03 GMT -5 SmashKing201 said:

@dmx: Yes, he seems like a very difficult character to explain, which makes him pretty easy to come up with ways to make him work cause many dont understand what proper way to make him work.

Also, here is something I like to point out that I forgot to mention. You have Mach Rider in the game. Before Crusade, the only 2 things everyone can think of that would work for him is his gun and motorcycle, thus giving the belief that there is no fighting potential and not fitting for Smash. You my friend changed that and proved that there is potential, which you deserve alot of credit for. Now Duckhunt Dog falls in that same category when discussing moveset potentials. He has 2/3 moves that can work just like Mach Rider had. But with creativity, Mach Rider was made to be fitting for Crusade. The same can work with Duckhunt Dog and any other character for that matter. And another thing on a personal note, I got into this forum cause I heard from Golden on youtube that Mach Rider was playable, which later influenced me to check this game out and havent looked back since. Not many would actually think that Duckhunt Dog would be made for a fangame, so the whole Mach Rider thing luring me to Crusade can most likely lure a new fan in if they see an unsuspecting character like Duckhunt Dog playable.

It's true that you can pull movesets out of your but and get away with it. Look at Ice Climbers; all they could do in their game was jump, but they somehow filled the entire moveset in Melee.

I really have trouble supporting new characters, but lack of moveset isn't always a disqualification (Though it sometimes is)

[StayPuft]

Ice Climbers' moveset has some origin behind it.

The Neutral Special is based on the Topis pushing the ice blocks in the original Ice Climber.
The Up Special is based on that, in 2 player mode, the two players could jump on each others heads to gain extra height, though it usually meant the other character fell and lost a life.

Otherwise, yeah they pulled the Ice Climbers' moveset out of their butts.

[-Dr.MarioX-]

Half the things Golden said had nothing to do with this game whatsoever.

Yeah, NightsOwl said earlier, it's just a game. Why, Golden, must you act so childish over Rival Trainer? That's one out of 79 characters you don't like. That's why we have so many characters to choose from.

[El Maiz]

He's not being childish.
He's just pointing out that Rival Trainer is a waste of space.

[-Dr.MarioX-]

Then that's his problem. Let him get used to the idea.

[El Maiz]

"Used to it"?
It isn't worth getting used to.

[DGN]

DMX, I realize you already graded Rival's pokemon, but you never gave an explanation of why you gave them 100s.
Could you at least explain why?
It could convince us to want him in.

Otherwise, you have no reason to say that we should get used to it.