Official v2 Tier List Crusade 0.6

[Zeldasmash]

Bomberman Pros = Bomb Stage Control and Bomb Spamming. Also Bomberman has very strong attacks and many reliable KO moves, the latter having very good hitboxes, priority and range. He is small and can duck under certain projectiles. Has a great vertical recovery (though at the cost of having one of the worst horizontal recoveries). Bomberman has both a very good air game and a great ground game.

Bomberman Cons = Light and has pretty slow movement speed (though he makes it up for good attack speed and air speed). Reflectors completely screw up Bomberman's metagame (Fox, Link, Mario, Saki). One of the worst horizontal recoveries and is pretty easy to gimp.

[ensane]

The problem with his stage control is that it's barely better than Snake's. It exists, but it's so loose that it's child's play to get around. Also, his vertical recovery should go under cons as well, since it's just terribad.

[ensane]

Double post bump. Sorry, mods I don't know how else to do it.

I've been wondering for a while, why is Yoshi last? If it just glitches, it seems to me that they're all avoidable by the Yoshi player and also it seems that the things that cause the glitches aren't the best things to do in those situations anyway. Kind of like Ice Climber glitches. Unless there are some that I don't know about?

[Felipe_9595]

If you avoid the glitch, you cant performs side b or neutral b. A character with 3 special??? bottom xD

Imo bomberman is pretty bad. His recovery sucks ball and his "Stage" control is pretty weak.

Fox is top tier XP

[ensane]

Wait, doesn't the glitch only happen if you use neutral b twice in a row? Also there are better options than side b in almost every situations imo. XD

I agree wholeheartedly with that Bomberman description.

[Felipe_9595]

OMFG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

oh **** FALCON YOU HAVE TO FIX THIS INMEDIATELY

YOUNG LINK AND WARIO HAVE INFINITE RECOVERYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

y link: Do an up b, then, rpess down b and jump At the same time. then do a upb and repeat

Wario: press press side b and jump at the same time. keep doing it XP

[Dettadeus]

And WHY exactly did you put this in the TIER LIST DISCUSSION?
That quite obviously fits in the glitch board.

OOH, do I see a censored word? I'm so very tempted to infract you for that, especially considering you're at 100% still...
And an off topic post. Hm. What to do...

(MAAAYBE J/K)

[Felipe_9595]

yeah, true, creating a topic right now xP

[dry]

I'm not sure if Wario's is infinite, because you only have one bike at a time. Wario could do that technique (bike jumping) in Brawl as well for a very long recovery, but because you can only have one bike at a time, Wario would have fallen the distance he had gained from the jump by the time he could pull out another bike.

Yoshi's neutral B and side B aren't used in competitive play anyway. If you look at how professional Yoshi mains in Brawl play, they rarely ever use these two special moves; Neutral B is basically a worse grab, and side B is predictable and easy to punish. Side B can be used for limited horizontal movement, but that's as far as it gets.

I think Yoshi's tier position is because of the down air nerf. Yoshi's down air was one of his best moves, and because now down airs auto-fast fall, his down air's become a lot less useful. Also he's lost range on his finishers (smash attacks) and his eggs have less explosion range, making them less useful for camping.

Bomberman is a bit like Olimar from Brawl. A little. At the centre of the stage, he is deadly, with rather overpowered attacks and great projectiles. He can basically rack up heavy damage there and finish early. At the edge, he has a horrifically gimpable recovery (because it has no hitbox, apart from the bomb). He definitely deserves a high place on the tier list, but should be a tiny bit lower.

Also, what's with Meta Knight's position? Sure he's been nerfed from Brawl, but I see only one flaw with him (no projectile), and that shouldn't really bring him down to 6th place?

I'm also confused about Link. What are his pros that managed to get him in the high tier? (for the first time in fighting game history, no offence link fans )

[Felipe_9595]

dry, no, wario is infinite, he is broken xP:



and yoshi is that low because he is glitchy as hell.

EDIT: this list is totally innacurate. Fox is top tier (OVer goku and kristal, goku have broken moves but he is gimpable and his recovery is bad) bobmerman, imo, is one of the worst characters of the game, even falcon sayd he was overplaced. Link recovery is awful, and all of his moves have a noticeable lag.

Snake is too low. Toad aproach is AWFUL. Luigi need to eb higher (nair is one of the ebst aerials of the game, his recovery is pretty good and he have a lot of good moves) Lucas need to be in middle/high tier, he have an infinite combo (Same for waluigi). Ryu should be lower, i will make my own version later.

EDIT 2:


SS Tier

1- Fox
2- Goku

A Tier

3-Meta Knight
4-Krystal
5-Lucario

B tier

6-Toon Link
7-Mach Rider
8-Luigi
9-Tails
10-Saki
11-Lucas

C tier

12Snake
13-Waluigi
14-Captain Falcon
15-Mario
16-Ryu/Evil Ryu
17-Ristar

D Tier

18-Wario
19-ZSS
20-Samus
21-Mewtwo
22-Pikachu
23-Ness

E Tier

24-Sonic
25-Toad
26-Jigglypuff
27-Knuckles
28-Peach


F Tier
29-Megaman
30.Kirby
31-Bomberman
32-Link

G(arbage) Tier

33.Yoshi

[The 85.]

I dissagre with that Tier List.
Link? 32? You've got to be kidding me.
Link is much better than you think.

[Felipe_9595]

No, is not.

he have one of the worst recoverys, along with out little friend bomberman, all of his moves have a noticeable lag. He lost his boomerang, so he have less attacks to space. In synthesis, he is like SSB 64 link. Which is low tier.

[Excalibur]

FOOL!
You're wrong about Goku, his recovery isn't too bad. And at least his U-Special has mind gaming potential. Goku should still remain at the top over the rest.

[Dettadeus]

Theres no way Meta is higher than Krystal. She has an infinite stun lock, for one. For two, Meta's range has been nerfed majorly since Brawl, as well as the Mach Tornado being majorly nerfed (which was one of the biggest reasons he was broken) so you have to remember that he isn't as broken as he used to be. He also has a worse matchup against Goku than Krystal. And yes, matchups with the higher tier characters DO affect tier placement. See Marth in Brawl? Judging by his matchup average, he should be second place, but he has crap matchups against the other high tier characters and thus must be placed lower.
Jigglypuff is WAY too low. Sing -> Rest is insanely easy to pull off now due to Sing's massive range and aerial mobility, and Rest can kill most characters at 50% or less if she's not smack dab in the middle of the stage. And did I mention Sing interrupts attack frames? As well as the fact that Rest heals Jigglypuff by 6% upon use.
And Fox can't be above Goku just because he's the only bad matchup for him. Goku has a higher matchup average across the board than Fox does. I'd say he could be third, with Goku in first, Krystal in second, and Meta in fourth if you want to be stubborn.
There's a lot of other problems I could point out but doing this from my iPod isn't exactly good for looking back at posts.

[The 85.]

Are you crazy? He can reflect projectiles with that new Side Special.
Yeah, his recovery is bad, but that doesn't mean he should be 32.
He has KO potencial in many of his moves.
Your tier list is too wrong.

[Felipe_9595]

Detta, in that point you are wrong. Meta have a better matchup against goku. he can easily gimp him with dair, one of the few attack that remained intact from brawl. His uair have combo potential dsmash comes out after 2 frames and shuttle loop is a still a kill move.

About fox and goku. i think i have say this multiple times before. Fox is voerall better thank goku. yes, is true goku have some insanely powerful broken mvoes (kame, uair, kaioken to name a few) BUT fox doesn't have a bad matchup. Not even one. Metaknight get a 50/50 against him (hey i haven't only recollected data of Human vs cpu, i have recollected some Cpu vs cpu matchs)

Fox pros:

ALL his moves leads to combo (Except for smashs, obviously)
Good recovery and more than 1 recovery option
Fixed knockback attack (shine). he can gimp at low percentage with this
A drill spike (Dair) he can kill with 0%%
3 powerful smash attacks, that they can be connected easily (Shine can be chained to everyone)
Upsmash kills at mid-high % (around 80%)
He have a spamable projectile
1 good grab (Dtrown), than can be chained to almost any attack.
+-fastfaller

Fox Cons:
+-Fast faller
bad grab game (U,b and f thrown are useless)


Goku have powerful moves. But he doesn't have the combo potential of fox, and he have bad matchups. Fox doesn't have bad matchups

yeah i can agree with you, i think i putted Jiggly too low

Oh, i disagree about kristal infinite points. I didnt take in count that. (Lucas have an infinite special, same for waluigi, same for luigi with CC and wario and Y Ling have Inf recoveries)



EDIT 2: Everything is subject to changes, remember, this is not definitive.

EDIT 2: Mario, your arguments are invalids. Reflecting projectiles is not a point. His only ko move that doesn't have lag is grounded up b, all of his attacks have lag, from dmash to down b. link is bad. link have been always bad. And what is even worse, they took out one of his few spacing tools, his boomerang.

EDIT 3: Oh btw mario, you are the only one discussing about link position


OHHHHHH btw i remembered something. Snake is in that position because i discovered something i call "Residual c4". Put a c4 and then put a granade on the same position and detonate the c4. A big black thing is going to be on that place now. That thing is actually a c4 that you cant detonate. it will for time. You can set many as you want, so he can literally control the whole stage :3

[Dettadeus]

It's not V3 if nobody agrees with it, Felipe. That list is LITERALLY only your opinion, and as you can see, nobody agrees with you. Tier lists require discussion, and obviously no discussion had a part in your tier list.
And may I remind you that the CPU's AI CANNOT be used for tier list placement? That alone should make your list completely invalid.

[The 85.]

Your Tier List is wrong in many ways, stop thinking that all you make is correct.
Yeah, Im the only one doing so, because Link is my main, and he shouldn't be that low.

[Felipe_9595]

Jul 26, 2011 12:04:27 GMT -5 Dettadeus said:

It's not V3 if nobody agrees with it, Felipe. That list is LITERALLY only your opinion, and as you can see, nobody agrees with you. Tier lists require discussion, and obviously no discussion had a part in your tier list.
And may I remind you that the CPU's AI CANNOT be used for tier list placement? That alone should make your list completely invalid.

Jul 26, 2011 12:18:53 GMT -5 The 85. said:

Your Tier List is wrong in many ways, stop thinking that all you make is correct.
Yeah, Im the only one doing so, because Link is my main, and he shouldn't be that low.

First, the "Official" tier lsit never had a "Official discussioN". i can clearly remember how this is lsit was only zelda opinion an nobody agreed with it (then only minor changes were made, but he never changed opinion about how bomberman is a bad character).

You havent refuted any fo my points. not even one. Okay, start discussing, why goku is overall better than fox, i already showed my arguments.

Who sayd i sued cpu to build the tier list?? i sued cpus tot est the matchup between Mk and Fox, nothing mroe

Mario, you are hilarious

"lucas is my second so he have to be a lot higher"

if you thing si wrong, proove it, show arguments, discuss about and dont say things like "he is my main so he must be higher "duuuu

Okay, start discussing :3

EDIT:

i am going to record some frame data (Cheat engine ftw xD) so if anyone needs specific moves just tell me

EDI 23502: As i see nobody haves problem with the bottom part of the list (Except for jiggs, but thats fixable (We are not touching link until we get proofs of why he need to be higher)) so i think we have to discuss about SS and A tier

[The 85.]

Wasn't there a backroom in the forum?
Because if there was one, then the Tier List v2 WAS discussed.