AEM's SSB4 Roster Topic -UPDATED-

[AEM]

EXTENSIVE EXCLUSIVES
Toad
Paper Mario
Skull Kid
Isa
Bandana Dee
Excitebiker
Mewtwo
Roy
Mike Jones

Got questions? I will answer them.

[y0sh1valentine]

.... how can be victini in?

[DGN]

Excitebiker: seems kind of odd for a smash game...
Geno: Overrated.
skull kid: Unless there ends up being a MM remake, he's just a forgotten character, especially with Majora's Mask.
Sukapon: Confirmed by Sakurai to not be in smash.
Little Mac: Confirmed by Sakurai not to be in smash, due to lack of moveset.
Quote: He'd be awesome, but I doubt he'd be in.

[-Dr.MarioX-]

Mega Man and Slime can't both be in. If you have two SEGA reps, every other 3rd party company has to have 2 reps. Konami's fine, but there would need to be 2 Capcom reps.

The only characters I think would be less likely than others would be:
King K. Rool for Dixie Kong
Skull Kid for Ghirahim
Bandana Dee for Prince Fluff

I think Waluigi will be in. Sakurai seems to like him.

[DGN]

Mega Man and Slime can't both be in. If you have two SEGA reps, every other 3rd party company has to have 2 reps. Konami's fine, but there would need to be 2 capcom reps.

Says who, exactly?
I personally think he didn't put two reps of SE and Capcom because they were newcoming series.

[PartisanDaw]

Isaac is win , AEM.

[-Dr.MarioX-]

Nintendo has to balance 3rd party companies or else it isn't fair. Notice that in Brawl, Sonic and Metal Gear have the same amount of trophies, songs, and stickers?

[DGN]

Well, if you look at it this way, SSB4 would have the same amount of returning 3rd parties and the same amount of newcomer 3rd parties.

[gigapichu]

Is Quote nintendo?

[DGN]

I actually believe he's a third party...by Nicalis....
Actually, he may be a 4th party for being originally a computer game(not a video game)

[gigapichu]

Aug 11, 2011 11:19:18 GMT -5 DGN said:

I actually believe he's a third party...by Nicalis....
Actually, he may be a 4th party for being originally a computer game(not a video game)

Then he can't be on here. But I know AEM loves Quote, so I understand why he put him here.

[plasmis]

Aug 11, 2011 10:14:29 GMT -5 PartisanDaw said:

Isaac is win , AEM.

-.- that's not Isaac though. That's Matthew, Isaac's son.

[dry]

Excitebike? Gonna be pretty hard making a moveset for this guy...

[PartisanDaw]

Aug 11, 2011 12:26:37 GMT -5 plasmis said:

Aug 11, 2011 10:14:29 GMT -5 PartisanDaw said:

Isaac is win , AEM.

-.- that's not Isaac though. That's Matthew, Isaac's son.

Ow.. My fail. But at least We have a GS rep here.

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I have some heavy criticisms on few characters that I will talk about when I'm NOT posting on my Wii.

[Slissith]

Highly unrealistic.

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Ok, criticisms. (Note, they are not for all characters that aren't on MY Roster, as I am fine with some, like Kamek, even though I feel Yoshi doesn't need a second character, and Matthew, because we really can't predict whether it'd be him or Isaac. Even Goroh, despite me favoring Black Shadow more.)

1. Geno: Where to I even begin with this....you know what, I won't even start. I've ranted about Geno too much. Long story short, he's completely undeserving.

2. Skull Kid: Now this is an issue I'm starting with instead of Geno. Why in the Hell do people want Skull Kid? IIRC, you don't fight him, you fight MAJORA. I don't care that Skull Kid has been in more than one game, aside from wearing Majora's Mask, he has done NOTHING ELSE IMPORTANT. And Majora's Mask was in ONE game that's outdated. Sure, it might get a remake like OoT did, but even then, it more or less boosts Young Link's chances more, given a moveset based on the Masks.

3. Toon Zelda/Tetra: Not too big an issue with me, but I'd rather not have another Toon version of a character. Especially when they'd be the same with the same gimmick. Tetra is unique enough from Zelda or Sheik, I'd say make her playable alone. Or axe the idea entirely and add Phantom Zelda instead. As like Pichu before her, Toon Zelda would be a lighter version of an already light character.

4. Quote: One thing that gets me is that he isn't put with the other Non-Nintendo characters. Another is that he is technically 4th Party as he started as a computer game character, not a console game character. Not only that, but he's relatively new and hasn't had much on Nintendo systems like Sonic has (I know Snake doesn't have much Nintendo games, but he got in due to his creator. I don't think Quote's wants him in Smash. If he does, then he has a shot.) I know you like Quote and Cave Story and all, but it's better not to include characters like this. Otherwise I'd put in Naruto as I enjoy his games and series (Yes, I'm a Naruto fan, so what? You wanna get me, haters? Bring it on!).

5a. 3 Pokemon Newcomers: It's just not going to happen. As much a great series as it is, it won't happen. It's ALWAYS been two Newcomers per game.

5b. No return of Mewtwo: Mewtwo is the one of the most requested characters for the new Smash due to his absence in Brawl. The fact that he was the closest to being finished of the scrapped Brawl characters and him having an original moveset, he is most likely to return.

5c. No Lucario: Lucario is not "flavor of the month". Lucario still holds a lot of popularity, and is even revelant in B/W due to Cynthia. If cutting Mewtwo raised Hell, imagine the Hell from cutting Lucario AND not bringing Mewtwo back.

5d. Meowth: Don't get me wrong, I like Meowth, and I'd like him in, but he has no shot. For one thing, Meowth is popular from the anime, and he talks in the anime. Sakurai doesn't want to reference the anime too much, so if Meowth was in, he wouldn't talk. And talking is what makes Meowth Meowth. As for why Mewtwo and Lucario talk, they've been given excuses. Mewtwo talks due to Psychic powers. Lucario talks due to Aura. Meowth has no such excuse.

5e. BOTH Zoroark and Victini: Not going to happen. It's one or the other. While signs point more towards Victini, Zoroark still has a big shot as well. However, one will make it in, the other will be a Poke Ball. Which fate happens to which Pokemon is anyone's guess.

6. Krystal: IMO, StarFox doesn't need 4 characters. Especially before Donkey Kong or Metroid. As for Krystal, she is completely undeserving. I'd get more into it, but like Geno, I have ranted much about Krystal. If you really are curious as to why I say she is undeserving, ask me in a PM.
Let's just say, if there WAS a 4th SF character, it will be either Slippy or Leon.

7. Lyn: Has absolutely nothing going for her. Reasons I've seen her considered "deserving":
a. "She's female". La de fricking da. That means NOTHING in terms of character choices. No one's added JUST because they're female, male, white, black, etc.
b. "She was in the first Fire Emblem to be released internationally". So was Eliwood and Hector. Both are better in their own regard. Eliwood was THE main lord or the game, and would make a very suitable Roy replacement if Roy was not to return. Hector was in TWO games, and uses an axe, which althought is not exactly different from a heavy sword, it still makes people want him more than another sword user.
c. "Very popular". Quite the contrary, she isn't THAT popular. In fact, she's noted as the character you have to use in the dreaded Tutorial levels, which although were good for those internationally that haven't played Fire Emblem, were irritating in Japan who had had the series from the beginning. And because she's associated with them, she's sparked hatred.
d. "She was an Assist Trophy in Brawl". Good for her; it doesn't give her a free pass into the next game. For example, you don't have Waluigi, Gray Fox, Shadow, Isaac, Tingle, Saki, etc., and they are all Assist Trophies. What make Lyn special that she will make it in that these guys won't?

8. Porky: Don't get me wrong, if Mother was to get a 3rd character, I would want it to be Porky. The only problem is, Mother doesn't need a 3rd character. ESPECIALLY not before Metroid or even F-Zero.

9. Excitebiker: Really? Excitebiker? Did you run out of ideas or something? If you really need an old biker, why not Mach Rider? He was supposedly going to be in Melee, due to having a redesigned trophy and remixed music in Melee. Not only that, but Sakurai even said no to Excitebiker during Melee's development due to "needing ramps" on every stage.

10. Sukapon: Again, I don't have a problem with this character, it's just that Sakurai said early on to "not expect Sukapon". Meaning Sakurai doesn't want to include him. For a (technically) Japan only retro, why not Takamaru? Sakurai expressed liking to him and that if he got a new game, he'd be happy to add him. Samurai Warriors 3 featured Takamaru, AND was released internationally. This might give Sakurai incentive to add him.

11. TOO Many 3rd Parties. Just WAY too many. Sakurai has even said that adding Snake and Sonic were problematic due to backlash. With a jump from 2 to 6, imagine the hate. At the most I could see 4 characters. That aren't from the same game or company.

And honorable mention: Starfy. Sakurai seems to hate this guy, so don't get your hopes up about him.

[SmashKing201]

Ok, now its my turn to critique this roster. ;D

Well first things first, this roster is too big. 60 characters is just over-doing it. Why would Sakurai jump from 35 to 60? Sakurai stated himself that he doesn't want to make a new Smash Bros with bigger roster and more stages. He is more focused on the gaming experience area of the series. Plus going from 35 to 60, that is almost 2x more than Brawl. Noticed how the Smash Bros roster only grows by 10 each sequel (minus SSB64 to Melee which extended by 13). So jumping from 10 or 13 to 25 is too much. Plus Sakurai will have to take so much focus off of the 1P Mode, gameplay, etc. to get a roster this big.

Now, on to the characters.

Geno
There is no way Geno will ever appear in a Smash Bros game, ever. He is way too overrated. Though he has move set potential, what he represents and lack of appearances effects him badly. Think about it. Why should he be the next Mario series rep? He only had 1 major role, and at that his recurring appearance in M&L was a cameo appearance. There are way too many Mario characters that are more relevant, recurring, and are more well-known (3 things Geno lacks when compared to the Mario series). What he represents effects him big time. Not only is he a Mario character that only had 2 appearances, which were a decade apart, but also he is 3rd party. Sakurai stated himself that getting Snake and Sonic was hard enough as it is. So why would Sakurai push to add in a 3rd party character that only favors the small number of Geno supporters? Top that with the fact that Square-Enix never used Geno themselves, so how does that make him a good rep for this 3rd party?

Also, I would like to point out that I think we will be looking at only 1 new Mario series rep. The Mario series is Nintendo's mascot series and its only fair for this series to have the equal amount of characters as the next series with the most. I think the 2 most likely candidates for that one spot are between Toad & Bowser Jr. I would say Paper Mario as well, but the 2 mentioned above are unique individuals in their own rights and I don't think Sakurai will let that pass.

I like the idea of Kamek, but there are 2 problems. 1 is that Kamek would not make a good Yoshi series rep due to the fact that he has appeared in more Mario games than he has in the Yoshi series. And 2, the roster column of the Mario-spin off characters will most-likely only have one open spot for a roster that will not pass 50 characters. That roster spot is most likely going to be given to King K Rool. The Wario series in the other hand doesn't need a 2nd rep either since the WarioWario/WarioLand series doesn't have much established characters that many remember.

Skull Kid is a less likely choice. Golden made a good point about how Skull Kid technically was not the villain since it was the mask that caused all the havoc and none the less this is an outdated rep. Sure Majora's Mask might have a re-release game, but not even the re-release of OoT got as many good reviews.

Quote is a very very less likely choice due to not originating from gaming and also a very less known character.

The Mii's I see as a possibility, especially since they will return to the Wii U. Especially since Sakurai will make a 3DS version of SSB4, which will be more personal for the player's experience with Smash Bros. This is a possible choice, but again it depends on the direction Sakurai takes this game.

Though Bandana Dee might be a potential choice, I don't see the Kirby series getting another rep this time around. The Kirby series doesn't need a 3rd rep, the current 3 are pretty much the series main reps, and that spot can most-likely go to a misc character instead.

Despite the fact that Sakurai is not really fond of Starfy due to his series resembling cuteness and artworks similar to Kirby, I think Starfy will likely have a chance for two reasons. 1 is that he is well liked in both America & Japan. Sakurai not liking Starfy is biased on his part. And 2, Sakurai is going to eventually need to add in a misc character and Starfy being one of the few most requested.

The Golden Sun rep can go either way in my view. Though I feel that Isaac is most likely.

Seeing the direction the Star Fox series has gone, I am beginning to believe Krystal's chances are in question. First off, the Star Fox series is very well represented with the 3 current reps. Second, they were lucky to have a total of 3 reps in the last Smash. And third, we are not promised that Krystal may even return to another Star Fox game.

I highly doubt we will see two 5th gen reps for Pokemon. But I do believe Zoroark or Victini are top candidates for the spot.

I dont see Lyn being playable. Since there is no planned FE game coming out anytime soon other than the 1st FE game remake, we will not see a new hero. And Roy fans are screaming for his return and seeing how he was planned for Brawl. So I dont see Lyn having any chance at all.

I would love Porky to be playable and he is the next most deserving rep for Mother, but the Mother series itself is a small dying franchise and should not have more characters than half the roster that is in desperate need of a new rep.

Seeing how Punch Out was brought back on the Wii, a spin off game starring The Doc was on the WiiWare, and rumors of Punch Out 2, I dont think Little Mac should no longer be labeled as a retro rep.

Sukapon is very less likely for 2 reasons. One, Sakurai hates him. And two, why should he be made playable over characters that are known worldwide like Balloon Fighter, Duck Hunt Dog, Excitebiker, Mach Rider, & Mike Jones? The five I just mentioned are retro characters known worldwide and has appeared in both NES & Famicon. Sukapon in the other hand only had games in Japan and was only available on the Famicon. If you noticed, the current retro reps were available on NES, Famicon, and/or Gameboy. Sukapon only appeared in one console while the 5 mentioned appeared in all 2 or 3, and in some cases on Arcade as well.

Excitebiker is possible since he was suggested for Melee, but then Sakurai had trouble making him playable.

There are too much 3rd parties on this roster. I see Snake and Sonic returning with Megaman or Ryu added to the mix and thats it.

[AEM]

Aug 11, 2011 13:41:13 GMT -5 GoldenYuiitusin said:

Ok, criticisms. (Note, they are not for all characters that aren't on MY Roster, as I am fine with some, like Kamek, even though I feel Yoshi doesn't need a second character, and Matthew, because we really can't predict whether it'd be him or Isaac. Even Goroh, despite me favoring Black Shadow more.)

1. Geno: Where to I even begin with this....you know what, I won't even start. I've ranted about Geno too much. Long story short, he's completely undeserving.

Geno stills has a chance in appearing in the new Paper Mario, being codeveloped with Square Enix. If he doesn't appear in the game, he is replaced by Paper Mario.

2. Skull Kid: Now this is an issue I'm starting with instead of Geno. Why in the Hell do people want Skull Kid? IIRC, you don't fight him, you fight MAJORA. I don't care that Skull Kid has been in more than one game, aside from wearing Majora's Mask, he has done NOTHING ELSE IMPORTANT. And Majora's Mask was in ONE game that's outdated. Sure, it might get a remake like OoT did, but even then, it more or less boosts Young Link's chances more, given a moveset based on the Masks.

I do understand what your getting at, but I think, at least for now. I'm using Skull Kid as a placeholder. I'm not going to simply choose Ghirham strait from the start I'm going to wait and see what he can do. I also think Skull Kid would be an interesting Smash Contender

3. Toon Zelda/Tetra: Not too big an issue with me, but I'd rather not have another Toon version of a character. Especially when they'd be the same with the same gimmick. Tetra is unique enough from Zelda or Sheik, I'd say make her playable alone. Or axe the idea entirely and add Phantom Zelda instead. As like Pichu before her, Toon Zelda would be a lighter version of an already light character.

There is no Dins Fire, Naryu's love, or Warp Gem in WW. Nintendo is smarter then that, Toon Zelda has Light Arrows yes, but it's not for the Final Smash. Phantom Zelda is practically Indestructable. The only thing that hurt her was Gigantic swords held of other Phantoms and Monsters with the same Buff as one.

4. Quote: One thing that gets me is that he isn't put with the other Non-Nintendo characters. Another is that he is technically 4th Party as he started as a computer game character, not a console game character. Not only that, but he's relatively new and hasn't had much on Nintendo systems like Sonic has (I know Snake doesn't have much Nintendo games, but he got in due to his creator. I don't think Quote's wants him in Smash. If he does, then he has a shot.) I know you like Quote and Cave Story and all, but it's better not to include characters like this. Otherwise I'd put in Naruto as I enjoy his games and series (Yes, I'm a Naruto fan, so what? You wanna get me, haters? Bring it on!).

I like Quote yeah, Nintendo has been accepting these games the same game for three times. That's gotta at least be saying something. Of course Quote has about the same chance as Geno, which is dissapointing. But I honestly would love to see Quote in smash, I have a moveset for an expansion and stuff. I'm not going to destroyed if he doesn't make it into the next Smash, but I'll feel a little sad.

5a. 3 Pokemon Newcomers: It's just not going to happen. As much a great series as it is, it won't happen. It's ALWAYS been two Newcomers per game.

Fair enough

5b. No return of Mewtwo: Mewtwo is the one of the most requested characters for the new Smash due to his absence in Brawl. The fact that he was the closest to being finished of the scrapped Brawl characters and him having an original moveset, he is most likely to return.

Mewtow was scarped because because Gamefreak forced Nintendo to remove him in place for Lucario.

5c. No Lucario: Lucario is not "flavor of the month". Lucario still holds a lot of popularity, and is even revelant in B/W due to Cynthia. If cutting Mewtwo raised Hell, imagine the Hell from cutting Lucario AND not bringing Mewtwo back.

As stated above, the same will probably happen to Lucario over Zoroark or possibly Victini.

5d. Meowth: Don't get me wrong, I like Meowth, and I'd like him in, but he has no shot. For one thing, Meowth is popular from the anime, and he talks in the anime. Sakurai doesn't want to reference the anime too much, so if Meowth was in, he wouldn't talk. And talking is what makes Meowth Meowth. As for why Mewtwo and Lucario talk, they've been given excuses. Mewtwo talks due to Psychic powers. Lucario talks due to Aura. Meowth has no such excuse.

I thought Meowth was one of the most Popular pokemon in Japan, among Pikachu and Jigglypuff. It's respectable that Sakurai doesn't like to reference the anime, James hasn't done a lot of pretty things in there.

5e. BOTH Zoroark and Victini: Not going to happen. It's one or the other. While signs point more towards Victini, Zoroark still has a big shot as well. However, one will make it in, the other will be a Poke Ball. Which fate happens to which Pokemon is anyone's guess.

May the waiting begin.

6. Krystal: IMO, StarFox doesn't need 4 characters. Especially before Donkey Kong or Metroid. As for Krystal, she is completely undeserving. I'd get more into it, but like Geno, I have ranted much about Krystal. If you really are curious as to why I say she is undeserving, ask me in a PM.
Let's just say, if there WAS a 4th SF character, it will be either Slippy or Leon.

All I can say is that she's another female, which Smash is in dire need of and that she was a working different moveset then Fox/Falco/Wolf.

7. Lyn: Has absolutely nothing going for her. Reasons I've seen her considered "deserving":
a. "She's female". La de fricking da. That means NOTHING in terms of character choices. No one's added JUST because they're female, male, white, black, etc.
b. "She was in the first Fire Emblem to be released internationally". So was Eliwood and Hector. Both are better in their own regard. Eliwood was THE main lord or the game, and would make a very suitable Roy replacement if Roy was not to return. Hector was in TWO games, and uses an axe, which althought is not exactly different from a heavy sword, it still makes people want him more than another sword user.
c. "Very popular". Quite the contrary, she isn't THAT popular. In fact, she's noted as the character you have to use in the dreaded Tutorial levels, which although were good for those internationally that haven't played Fire Emblem, were irritating in Japan who had had the series from the beginning. And because she's associated with them, she's sparked hatred.
d. "She was an Assist Trophy in Brawl". Good for her; it doesn't give her a free pass into the next game. For example, you don't have Waluigi, Gray Fox, Shadow, Isaac, Tingle, Saki, etc., and they are all Assist Trophies. What make Lyn special that she will make it in that these guys won't?

It was either her or Michiah, honestly. I wanted to see your reaction on it, and it obviously seems like you don't like it much.

8. Porky: Don't get me wrong, if Mother was to get a 3rd character, I would want it to be Porky. The only problem is, Mother doesn't need a 3rd character. ESPECIALLY not before Metroid or even F-Zero.

9. Excitebiker: Really? Excitebiker? Did you run out of ideas or something? If you really need an old biker, why not Mach Rider? He was supposedly going to be in Melee, due to having a redesigned trophy and remixed music in Melee. Not only that, but Sakurai even said no to Excitebiker during Melee's development due to "needing ramps" on every stage.

lolramps

10. Sukapon: Again, I don't have a problem with this character, it's just that Sakurai said early on to "not expect Sukapon". Meaning Sakurai doesn't want to include him. For a (technically) Japan only retro, why not Takamaru? Sakurai expressed liking to him and that if he got a new game, he'd be happy to add him. Samurai Warriors 3 featured Takamaru, AND was released internationally. This might give Sakurai incentive to add him.

I do not know this Takamaru.

11. TOO Many 3rd Parties. Just WAY too many. Sakurai has even said that adding Snake and Sonic were problematic due to backlash. With a jump from 2 to 6, imagine the hate. At the most I could see 4 characters. That aren't from the same game or company.

Alrighty then.

And honorable mention: Starfy. Sakurai seems to hate this guy, so don't get your hopes up about him.

Mainly due to the copyness of good old Kirby

Oh and Bomberman is property of Hudson, which is property of Konami.

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I am tired of explaining this, LUCARIO DID NOT REPLACE MEWTWO.
LUCARIO REPLACED PICHU.
JIGGLYPUFF IS THE REASON MEWTWO IS GONE.

I might as well explain this again.
There were originally 5 Pokemon characters, and 5 Mario characters.
The 5 Pokemon characters were: Pikachu, Pokemon Trainer, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, and Pichu's replacement. The Mario characters were the 5 from Melee.

Pikachu was a sure shot, and Pokemon Trainer was to introduce a new gimmick, so Sakurai made him a priority. That left Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, and Pichu's replacement.
Gamefreak did demand Lucario, so Lucario was to be Pichu's replacement, and was added into the Roster.

Leaving Jigglypuff and Mewtwo. Both were going to be in, but there was one problem. Dr. Mario was scrapped, and had no replacement. Leaving Mario with 4 characters, and Pokemon can not have more characters than Mario. So, Sakurai had to choose between the two.

Mewtwo was to be the one, because of how fans viewed Jigglypuff. HOWEVER, last minute, Sakurai changed his mind due to Jigglypuff being in both Smashes prior to Brawl. You can tell this was a late decision as Jigglypuff has no role in the SSE other than being a bonus character (Given how late this was, Mewtwo would have been the same) and because Jigglypuff is now one of the LAST to unlock, not the FIRST like before.

It's Jiggz' fault Mewtwo is gone, not Lucario. The fact Mewtwo has a big fanbase, has outroars over his removal, and because he had an original moveset, as well as cut for roster limits rather than intentional removing (like Pichu), Mewtwo is a sure character for the next Smash.


EDIT: Hudson Soft is dead. Bomberman is now owned solely by Konami now.

As for Krystal, as I said for Lyn, no one gets in just because they're female, and Krystal really has nothing to make her different from the other 3 StarFox characters. The staff was in one game and used by Fox.