Community Tier List: Crusade 0.7 (On Number 3)

[dry]

fast falling speed = he falls fast, not he fast falls fast.

There is no way to recover from foxs down air, but there is no way to recover from metaknights either. Metaknights down air knocks them away with no vertical knockback whatsoever, which means that each down air pushes them away from a recovering advantage, until they can no longer recover. The only ways around metaknights down air are air dodges, which make you helpless and are pretty much suicide, and warping specials like pikachus and gokus, which can't be hit by fox's either. Tell me what I've got wrong here.

When you say "number of lead-ins", you mean down air and shine, right? Sure they set up an up smash very well, but even then they are still easily read. Those two are fox's best moves, and your opponent will be predicting and baiting them all the time. But look at metaknights lead-ins: neutral air, back air, down tilt and jab (to an extent). Look at those moves; of them, anyone who knows the MK matchup will only ever look out for two of them. This means that the number of opportunities metaknight has for finishing easily outnumber fox's.

Yes, fox finishes earlier than metaknight, but metaknight gimps better, as I have explained above, and he still has more finishers. Foxs up smash only kills vertically; characters like link and falcon actually die to metaknights down smash before they do to fox's up smash, due to their vertical survivability. Foxs horizontal finishing ability is worse than metaknights, due to the lag from forward smash and the gimping ability I explained above. Of course, fox's vertical finishing ability is better, conversely, but the margin between their vertical finishing ability is smaller than the margin between their horizontal finishing ability.

Unfortunately everyones going for fox anyway. If it comes to a vote, I guess I've lost this.

I can't find it on the new forum either. In fact, some of the boards there are completely empty; is it a glitch on my phone?

[Dettadeus]

The forum hasn't been used fully yet, so there are a lot of empty boards. The BR is hidden as well.

Actually I might move tier list discussion into the BR on the new forum and start bringing people into it. Nobody really checks here anymore.

Fast Falling is a term, I assumed you were using it and not describing his falling speed.

Time to take a look at the code.
-Fox's D-Air comes out one frame faster than Meta Knight's. Not significant but could be game changing.
-Fox's D-Air hits the opponent at a 270 degree angle (straight down). Meta Knight's is angled to the side, and the angle is slightly different depending on a number of factors, such as which hitbox hits and if both players are facing the same direction.
-Fox's D-Air takes 34 frames, Meta Knight's takes 30 (not counting any hitlag)
-Fox's D-Air has 3-4 more frames of hitstun that Meta Knight's (dependent on which of MK's hitboxes hits the opponent).
-Meta Knight's D-Air hitbox is out for less time than Fox's.
-Meta Knight's D-Air has slightly more priority.
-Meta Knight's D-Air has a larger base knockback and base knockback growth.
-Fox's D-air has 5 hitlag frames on each individual hit. Meta Knight has 6 on a single hit.

Take that as you will. Also keep in mind that a couple of characters are just plain ungimpable under most circumstances (Gooey's U-Special makes him invincible and moves him in any direction for a huge distance, as well as his N-Special screwing people over mid-chase), meaning that Fox is more likely to kill earlier.

Fox's lead-ins are pretty absolute. There's about a one-frame gap between an auto-cancelled D-Air and an U-Smash, for one. Fox also has a lot of ways to mix it up, such as grabbing instead of U-Smashing (which screws over people who can shield).

EDIT: The BR over on the new forum is up and running. Most people in this discussion are in the BR, so we can continue this there.