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Post by Dettadeus on Mar 22, 2011 0:24:45 GMT -5
Well, in that case, I'll begin.
Although I'll do it bit by bit, to leave discussion of each tier before finalizing it.
Also, none of the placements are in a particular order.
TOP TIER:
Goku
Child/Toon/Young/?? Link.
Krystal
Bomberman
Ryu/Evil Ryu
Ristar
Tails
The main explanation is that (besides Krystal) these are the only characters I really ever have trouble beating as Krystal.
Other explanation:
Goku: Yeah, he's a bit broken now. Fast, large, relatively light for his size, good projectiles, good final smashes. Kamehameha is rather annoying since it's not cancelled by Krystal's Side-special, which is my first reflex against a projectile. The only thing that really balances him is his horrible recovery move.
Child/Toon/Young/?? Link: His boomerang and d-special are high-priority, his horizontal recovery is great (not not to mention the mindgame use), he's got good attacks in general.
Krystal: Up there for obvious reasons. Great close range, great long range, short recovery is one of her few flaws, although this is somewhat offset due to its invincibility frames.
Bomberman: Final Smash = Broken. Also has relatively high priority projectiles and a pretty good vertical recovery.
Ryu/Evil Ryu: He's Ryu. Good all around, has a high priority projectile that's relatively spammable.
Ristar: He's just annoying in general, especially his final smash and mid-range fighting style.
Tails: Good vertical and horizontal recovery, pretty good projectiles and smashes. Probably the bottom of this tier.
Also, on the topic of the new characters: They're all bottom tier since they don't have metagames yet XD
Any thoughts?
And now I find out that Goku'll have a new moveset to go along with his sprites (or the other way around?). So that might bring him down for the next version.
Waitwaitwait just had an epiphany:
If my theory of Falcon releasing the next demo right when we finalize the tier list is correct, then if we finalize the tier list really soon he'll release the next version really soon.
MUST... MAKE... REST OF TIER LIST...
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Post by El Maiz on Mar 22, 2011 7:01:57 GMT -5
Toad should be up in high.
Really good recovery, great K.O. power, above average FS, Rather short range on A attacks.
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Post by Dettadeus on Mar 22, 2011 9:17:22 GMT -5
I haven't gotten to high tier yet. That was top.
Although I do agree that Toad goes in the next lowest tier. His final smash is exceedingly annoying and his turnip toss thing is high priority.
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Post by falcon8r on Mar 22, 2011 15:57:19 GMT -5
I haven't gotten to high tier yet. That was top. Although I do agree that Toad goes in the next lowest tier. His final smash is exceedingly annoying and his turnip toss thing is high priority. Turnip Toss is getting buffed/nerfed. It will take less time to pull up a turnip, but it will have more lag time when you toss it, and it will travel is a higher arc, but less horizontally. The knockback is also being reduced a bit. |
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Post by El Maiz on Mar 22, 2011 16:22:30 GMT -5
I haven't gotten to high tier yet. That was top. Although I do agree that Toad goes in the next lowest tier. His final smash is exceedingly annoying and his turnip toss thing is high priority. He also has the best taunt in the game. |
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Post by Dettadeus on Mar 23, 2011 12:29:18 GMT -5
Alright, time for High Tier!
Fox
Toad
Jigglypuff
Lucario
Mach Rider
Meta Knight
Of course it's a coincidence that all my mains and secondaries ended up in top or high tier.
Explanations:
Fox has always been up with the cream of the crop, and that hasn't changed in Crusade. His up-tilt and up-air are great combo starters and enders, respectively, and his b-up can be aimed into the ground to cancel the helpless state and leave him in the air again to use it a second time. It's also a pretty good combo ender. Not to mention that he also has his Fox Illusion and Reflector Shield as well.
Toad's just a general nuisance. His down-smash is pretty dang good, and Turnip Toss is rather broken at the moment due to it's high priority. His recovery move is also very good. His final smash, of all things, is exceedingly powerful and can kill reliably at relatively low percents considering who we're talking about.
Jigglypuff has the best of everything now. Rest is back to it's 64-esque power, so it's a reliable kill move again. Sing can now be moved back and forth (if used in the air) so it's easier to trap opponents in it (as well as having a slightly larger range). Her final smash comes out near instantaneously, and is arguably the best edge-guarding move in the whole game, as it can literally cover a side of the stage. The only things holding her back are her light weight and Rising Pound, which does not work in v0.6. (I can't remember, did you ever fix this Falcon?)
Lucario is great. Although his counter currently sucks, his Aura Multiplier property now powers up every single move in his arsenal (save for the grab-attack, I believe). His new moveset is great overall. Aura Sphere is also insanely useful, as charging it practically gives you a shield from behind. It can cancel out almost any physical attack (Pikachu's Volt Tackle takes four or five hits to actually break through it), as well as having high priority when thrown. He also has a pseudo-chain grab by combining Force Palm with his Down Throw many times over (as I've demonstrated multiple times before). His new Final Smash is also much more usable, and it's power caps out around 70% damage with huge knockback when powered up by Aura.
Mach Rider has some fast and powerful attacks. I don't have a whole lot to say here since I haven't played him a whole lot, but his motorcycle (is that his side-b?) is high priority and extremely fast, as well as his Final Smash being really good for building up damage for a big hit and providing said big hit (running someone over).
Meta Knight has been nerfed slightly from his initial appearance in Brawl. He's still great, but now there are a few characters that can beat the crap out of him by abusing their projectiles (Goku, Ryu, and Krystal to name a few).
So whaddaya guys think?
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Post by falcon8r on Mar 23, 2011 12:51:45 GMT -5
The only things holding her back are her light weight and Rising Pound, which does not work in v0.6. (I can't remember, did you ever fix this Falcon?) Yes, I did.  Nice points you made there. |
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Post by DGN on Mar 23, 2011 13:53:40 GMT -5
I think Saki should be up there.
He's great for combo's, avoiding moves, speed, and a lot of other things.
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Post by Zeldasmash on Mar 23, 2011 14:16:20 GMT -5
Link and Mach Rider should be in the high as well.
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Post by Dettadeus on Mar 23, 2011 14:21:12 GMT -5
Mach Rider is up there.
I'll play against Link a bit tomorrow, I'm not sure about his placement yet. Mind you, I'm doing this only with the list of characters in front of me. My netbook's too weak to play crusade on.
I might put Saki up there, though. I've played as him, and he's pretty good. Although I do recall escaping his final smash once, right before he shot the lasers straight up I managed to DI out of the way or something.
This is why I leave them up to discussion first.
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Post by DGN on Mar 23, 2011 15:45:29 GMT -5
Saki's final smash is one of his few flaws.
A number of times have happened that the enemy was brought into the air, and went a tiny bit farther from the shots and stayed alive.
EDIT: Also, Lucario's vSpecial isn't good, you say?
I actually thought its better.
Slows time completely for a spot-on move.
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Post by Dettadeus on Mar 23, 2011 15:56:52 GMT -5
The attack part of the counter doesn't work at all is the main problem.
And using it in the air forces you to fast fall.
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Post by El Maiz on Mar 23, 2011 18:08:40 GMT -5
Double tap Fast fall.
Fixes all this crap.
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Post by falcon8r on Mar 23, 2011 23:19:44 GMT -5
Saki's final smash is one of his few flaws. A number of times have happened that the enemy was brought into the air, and went a tiny bit farther from the shots and stayed alive. I fixed this for the next version. By the way, I also made Lucario's Double Team counter move easier to hit with. That is, the hitbox is a bit larger, and he moves farther while kicking. |
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Post by Dettadeus on Mar 24, 2011 0:21:23 GMT -5
Ah. That's good.
And so my predictions are correct; we are going to need a new tier list for the next demo.
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Post by falcon8r on Mar 24, 2011 9:15:08 GMT -5
Ah. That's good. And so my predictions are correct; we are going to need a new tier list for the next demo. I can guarantee you will. There have also been some other changes. - Shield stun is generally lower. This means it's harder to be aggressive against a shielding opponent unless you are good with grabs. - Grabs no longer catch airborne or flinching opponents. In the next version, they will no longer catch shield-stunned opponents. That is, if Mario does a fast-fall Nair which gets shielded by Link, Mario cannot grab Link until Link comes out of the shield stun resulting from the blocked Nair. - As a result, many throws in the game have been buffed. - Goku and Evil Ryu are somewhat lighter. - Toad's been nerfed in some areas and buffed in others. - The momentum retained from running jumps has been changed from 80% to 85%. - Air dodges have less invulnerability. - Not to mention, we'll have more characters! You'll have to play it and see for yourself. |
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Post by Dettadeus on Mar 24, 2011 12:01:19 GMT -5
*Sigh of relief* I don't see Krystal up there. =D
Alright, if there are no further quandaries with High Tier, I'll start with Mid-1:
Saki
Link
Pikachu
Waluigi
Captain Falcon
Lucas
And Mid-2:
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Sonic
Samus (Not separating them yet)
Megaman
Wario
And Low:
Snake
Knuckles
Yoshi
Kirby
Ness
Mid-1:
Saki's pretty good, there are a few things he's missing (More reliable kill moves).
Link's much better than in the previous smash games.
Pikachu just doesn't feel like he did in the other games, although he's getting buffed for 1.0.
Waluigi i-PURPLE IS A COLOR.
Captain Falcon still has a couple issues, but he's good over all.
Lucas = Stun Tricks = Broken. But slow kill moves and awkward recovery balance this.
Mid-2:
Mario is Mario. He's Mr. Balance, and so he's pretty much in the middle.
Luigi's got good horizontal and vertical recovery, but you can't put them together. If you're below the level of the stage and far away from it, you're screwed.
Peach is Peach. Can't say much.
Sonic is... well, Sonic. Fast but can't kill very well. YUR TOO SLO-*KABOOOOOOOOM*. Could probably be Mid-1 JUST because of how broken the CPU is with his final smash, but that's only the CPU.
Samus (Power Suit Samus, at least) is there because she's a bit on the slow side (in movement and attacking) and her projectiles are easy to dodge, as well as her FS.
Megaman is there for lack of a better place to put him. His recovery isn't very good, which is the main problem. His final smash can also be easily escaped by DIing out of the way of the physical projectiles, which are the only parts with KO potential.
Wario is there because he's Wario. He's not bad, but he's not good either.
Low:
We all know why who's here is here, so very short explanations:
Snake just isn't as good as he was in Brawl.
Knuckles is powerful but S-L-O-W when attacking. His boulder-throw thing also has no kill potential when you DI into the broken rock.
Yos-GLITCHGLITCHGLITCHGLITCH
Not much I can say about Kirby.
Ness is like Lucas but without stun tricks, and his recovery can be screwed by following him and getting hit by the PK Thunder.
I might change these around a LOT after getting to play against each one again, since I just got home and don't have much time today.
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Post by Zeldasmash on Mar 25, 2011 12:34:03 GMT -5
Why is Knuckles low?
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Post by falcon8r on Mar 25, 2011 12:49:04 GMT -5
I think Wario's play style has completely changed. He still seems like a great character to me. With his Bike, Balloon Wario, and Waft, he has lots of tools for recovery (and attacking). Also, I feel that his normal attacks on the ground are very good. His Jab is very safe, Down Tilt is just good, and his Up Tilt and Up Smash have incredible priority against airborne foes.
I can see why Knuckles is low. He has lots of KO moves, but they're all pretty situational. His Up Smash seems to be his redeeming factor. Also, he does a lot of damage with Spin Dash combos. (And, a lot of damage in general.) He also has one of the best recoveries in the game (Spin Dash -> cancel with Up B). I hope players learn to use him a little better. I honestly think he has good potential.
Nice listing overall, but I think Peach needs more explanation (and exploration - she's honestly a pretty tricky character).
Edit: Also, I disagree with your take on Ness. They play very differently, even on a fundamental level. Ness's PK Fire is one of his most important tools, and Lucas doesn't even have it. Ness' normal attacks are also very different in appearance and use. I honestly think Ness should be up there with Wario.
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Post by Zeldasmash on Mar 25, 2011 12:58:21 GMT -5
Knuckles has amazing edgeguarding capabilities (in the air, none of his move are high risk) has an amzing air game, excellent KO moves (though i admit they are situational) an excellent recovery and a great ground game and combo potential. His Uair is a good vertical killer. His Dspecial (teh rock) is not made for killing, its made for mindgames and leading to other attacks or even a combo. The Dspecial works as edgeguarding if the opponent is airbourne (the opponent focuses on avoiding the rock instead of recovering which is the main priority when luanched (see, mindgames)) and in the ground, it racks up damage quickly and it can lead to other attackks, combos or even KO moves at high damage (at high damage, this is a must).
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