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Post by PhantomVII on Apr 8, 2011 12:07:37 GMT -5
I love how you gave yourself 10 Karma for no reason. People here are the ones who play the game and not throw it into the recycle bin after one time. Who says they have enough credibility? People who are not as biased as you two I received 10 karma points from Werekill because I am a developer, thank you. Think before you make presumptuous and off topic statements like that. I am trying to expand the fanbase for this game, not design it to satisfy specifically YOU GUYS. Nearly all of the characters suggested in this community are characters that members here have been biased for (ex. Agumon, Duck Hunt Dog, Ancient Minister, Ratchet, etc.), and for that reason I cannot give you guys credibility for the decisions made for characters in this game. I am attempting to take characters from the greatest games I can find/think of and create a roster that will satisfy the majority of Nintendo/video game fans, and biased, illogical suggestions like Duck Hunt Dog and Ancient Minister are making this more difficult. This project is too big to have a fan base this small, and if I want to expand it to more gamers, it is very likely that I will not take action for many of the suggestions here. Reasons are stated above. You are simply not credible. People are not as biased as us two? That's a personal attack and a fallacious statement. If you disagree on that, reread the above paragraph. I am doing the best I can to avoid bias. |
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Post by falcon8r on Apr 8, 2011 12:47:49 GMT -5
This whole game is illogical. Forget logic. Well, I suppose this means we don't give a Goomba's tush about our fans. Might as well stop taking suggestions.  |
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Post by Dettadeus on Apr 8, 2011 14:01:44 GMT -5
The only problem is that EVERYONE is biased, because everything that is opinion is biased in some way. If you don't want biased ideas to create the roster, then ask a bunch of people to research each character, play some of the game, and then give them a grade. After you collect everything, average it out and take everyone's points into account and decide based on that.
Apparently, for Brawl,
Please think about this, even for a second.
Were you even taking suggestions in the first place? The only suggestion I've seen you take was Zoroark.
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Post by PhantomVII on Apr 8, 2011 14:41:41 GMT -5
This whole game is illogical. Forget logic. Forget logic? Well, do you want this game to make sense or not? If we don't make logical, rational decisions on what we do with this game, we're wasting our time developing it. Well, I suppose this means we don't give a Goomba's tush about our fans. Might as well stop taking suggestions. You really shouldn't generalize so much. I'll accept suggestions, but I'll only act on those that we as a team (and this does NOT include this community - remember they are not the developers) deem worthy. But that does not mean that I will sit around and take orders from the fans. Do you think Nintendo ever listens to their fans? Remember The Wind Waker? Tons of fans complained about the graphic style, but Nintendo didn't change it even a bit. And it turned out to be fantastic game with a perfectly matching graphic style. Sometimes, or rather, most of the time, we need to make the decisions instead of letting the fans do it for us, unless they have some kind of proof of credibility. And why, again, should logic not be a part of this? Apparently, for Brawl, Japanese fans were asked to submit their desired characters and musical themes via a forum on the game's official Japanese site for possible inclusion. The most requested third-party character, Sega's Sonic the Hedgehog, was announced to be in Brawl on October 10, 2007. Please think about this, even for a second. While that is true, Sonic was a highly anticipated character for Brawl, especially because of the inclusion of Snake, which raised much hope and possibility of the addition of another 3rd party character, who turned out to be Sonic, one of the most obvious choices. So are you trying to compare Sonic the Hedgehog to characters like Agumon, Duck Hunt Dog, and the Ancient Minister? Do you believe that the sole reason Sonic was added to Brawl was because of fans' requests? Surely there was some logical decision making involved; the developers couldn't have just thrown in Sonic because the fans wanted them to. To me, it honestly sounds like you guys are trying to convince me this: Let's forget logic and just throw in some characters requested in this community because they would be cool and fun. Did you forget that we have an entire roster written? While it may be subject to change, in order to make those changes, we have to replace a character because the roster is capped at 80. Doc and I did a lot of research and logical decision making - while also inventing a scoring system for potential characters - to form the current roster. Unless we have very logical, well-supported reasons to replace a character, we will not do so. EDIT: The only problem is that EVERYONE is biased, because everything that is opinion is biased in some way. If you don't want biased ideas to create the roster, then ask a bunch of people to research each character, play some of the game, and then give them a grade. After you collect everything, average it out and take everyone's points into account and decide based on that. Of course everyone is biased; that's why we try our best to avoid bias. Your description is very similar to what Doc and I did while creating the new roster. We researched, played games, looked up reviews and critical reception for games, and used a scoring system to check our decision making. |
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Post by DGN on Apr 8, 2011 15:15:30 GMT -5
Curious about that last part;
Did you play all the games with critical reception?
Did you also play games that were on systems you don't own?
And Nights Owl has suggested before that the roster should not stop at 80; but instead, stop when the devs feel like it.
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Post by Dettadeus on Apr 8, 2011 15:21:22 GMT -5
@phantom: I wrote that quote in your last edit, actually.
It's also at the wrong time.
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Post by PhantomVII on Apr 8, 2011 16:54:50 GMT -5
Curious about that last part; Did you play all the games with critical reception? Did you also play games that were on systems you don't own? Yes, combined (If Doc hasn't played them, I have, and vice versa), Doc and I have played all of the games represented by the new characters we added - critical reception or no critical reception. And most of them were played on emulators, but some of them we own or once owned. And Nights Owl has suggested before that the roster should not stop at 80; but instead, stop when the devs feel like it. NightsOwl is a great help for keeping the forums in order but really doesn't have much to do with development. We have to keep the roster capped at 80 to keep the roster organized and balanced, have enough space on the character-selection screen, and include as many characters as we can while doing so. @phantom: I wrote that quote in your last edit, actually. It's also at the wrong time. Sorry, I knew it was yours; I just copied the wrong text. Fixed. |
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Post by El Maiz on Apr 8, 2011 17:14:48 GMT -5
You cannot avoid Bias.
If someone suggests a character, and they should't be biased, you're pretty much saying that they can't want that character in.
Logical, well supported reasons?
I would bet money that the fans have more of those than you do.
And yes, you guys are being biased.
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Post by GoldenYuiitusin on Apr 8, 2011 17:56:36 GMT -5
The difference is, Phantom, that since you and Doc are the ones deciding the roster, it's YOUR bias that overrules everyone elses, which is the same as a dictatorship. What you want is what will be, and screw everyone else.
Cases in point; Frank West, Rival Trainer, and Aero.
And if you REALLY want to get thousands of people to play, you need to choose characters that PEOPLE KNOW (not Aero), are not completely out the @$$ (not Rival Trainer), and are ones that are actually good choices (not Frank West).
And I find your "we need to find characters that all the devs find worthy" to be a bunch of bull. There are quite a few characters that YOU AND DOC decided that Falcon doesn't like the idea of.
So it's essentially "Phantom's and Doc's Character Decisions". The motto is "If it isn't someone we like/want, it's too biased."
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Post by El Maiz on Apr 8, 2011 18:01:20 GMT -5
I would say that dictatorship is pretty harsh, but they might as well remove the suggestion board.
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Post by GoldenYuiitusin on Apr 8, 2011 18:04:38 GMT -5
I would say that dictatorship is pretty harsh, but they might as well remove the suggestion board. No, it isn't too harsh. That's what it is. No sense in sugar-coating it. |
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Post by El Maiz on Apr 8, 2011 18:05:21 GMT -5
I suppose that you're right.
Just sounds a bit blunt to me. I guess that it should be.
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phantomhp
Forum Regular
rogue artist
Posts: 389
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Post by phantomhp on Apr 8, 2011 18:51:25 GMT -5
How on Earth did I miss this little flame war? This has gotten a little out of hand. Firstly I will say I'm happy to see that Phantom7 and DMX are agreeing on something again.
@phantom: I understand where you are coming from with trying to use logic to decide the roster and that fans are biased and all of that. This is your original idea and it has transformed into a quite beautiful game. My issue is that the character grading system you use is biased just as much as our opinions are, and that saying you are taking the bias out of character selection is a lie. You may back up your results with evidence but in every debate there is evidence on both sides to argue with.
I personally have never heard of Aero the Acrobat until he was announced on the roster. I know nothing about him, my hardcore gamer friends know nothing about him, my casual gamer friends know nothing about him, and my friends who don't play video games have naturally never heard of him as well. You have an argument that is supported by facts and that shows Aero in a good light. I'm sure someone could pick up your grading system and google search and formulate an argument against him.
The inclusion in your grading system of move potential is one thing that strikes me the most as pointless. A move set can be made around anything. It isn't as if every attack a character uses is from their game and usually original. I understand that finding a unique moveset can be more difficult with some characters than with others but with fans writing up movesets overnight I don't see that as a problem.
@fans: I understand the fact that Phantom has disrespected you as a general population on more than one account. You fight hard for characters that you as loyal fans want to see more of. You write up movesets for most of them as well! You do need to try and understand though that this is his game as well as the other developers. This isn't a dictatorship as much as it is a marketplace. We are but consumers giving our input on what we want to buy. It is their decision as makers of the product in the end for what they want to sell. You may think "Then why is Phantom being such a stupid idiot for not listening to his consumers?" He's not being an idiot, he is listening to what makes sense to him and that is facts. The truth of the matter is that as a fanbase we don't exactly cover the globe. Phantom wants what will suit the population as a whole and he is of the opinion that excepting such a small sample isn't scientifically logical for the best results. This I agree on. If we were 10,000 instead of 10, that would count as a better sample. Basically what I'm trying to say is you can disagree with him but that won't change the way he operates.
PHHP out.
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Post by El Maiz on Apr 8, 2011 18:53:51 GMT -5
You make a good point, but the thing about him trying to think about what everyone else wants, he has NO CLUE.
WE are the best he has. If he doesn't listen to the fans that give feedback, WHO THE CRAP does he listen to and try to please?
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Post by PhantomVII on Apr 8, 2011 19:15:18 GMT -5
Hmmm.
I bet if I suddenly said "Nights is in the game", and only that, all of this would stop.
Today Doc and I made a couple of alterations in the character roster. I am not going to reveal who they are, because that's for the players to discover when they play the game. However, I will say that Aero is not too likely to be kept on the roster. And it was not because of what you guys said, it was because there were characters listed that did not represent good enough games. And it is very probable that Nights will not be a character either, mostly because his games did not have enough influence on gaming. The characters that we chose today are characters from games that majorly impacted gaming - one of them a huge impact on shooting games.
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Post by El Maiz on Apr 8, 2011 19:16:30 GMT -5
It's Ratchet, rriiiight?
/sarcasm
Probably Master Chief.
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Post by Dettadeus on Apr 8, 2011 19:17:11 GMT -5
Hm. Shooting games... Duck Hunt Dog Master Chief. We have to keep the roster capped at 80 to keep the roster organized and balanced, have enough space on the character-selection screen, and include as many characters as we can while doing so. Funny you should say that. In Naruto Shippuuden: Ultimate Ninja Heroes 3, there are 3 pages of select screen for about 50 spots on the CSS. If the main thing capping you at 80 characters is the size of the CSS, just give it more pages. Have it scroll. We're not limited to the size of the window. The only limits I see are the time and effort you guys are willing to put in (which I know is a ton), the spriting resources available (If I recall, DMX said he could sprite characters that don't have sprites already) and file-size (which is the LEAST of all our worries.) |
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Post by El Maiz on Apr 8, 2011 19:19:01 GMT -5
Also, if you guys are looking for charcaters with a large impact on gaming, which I agree with wholeheartedly, they'd all have to be pretty old. I thought that we'd want some newer icons.
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Post by DGN on Apr 8, 2011 19:21:51 GMT -5
Ah, that post makes me feel much more relaxed. NiGHTS' game was unique for a platformer, I believe being one of the first, if not the first or the only to have the main character fly to move, trying to get through an obstacle course. NiGHTS was pretty much a race-flying-platformer. I'll still be competing for NiGHTS to be in, but as long as there are logical choices, its fine with me. Also, the last statement..."one of them a huge impact on shooting games." That's an obvious referring to Duck Hunt, I think.  Also, I apologize for the statement I made about the biasment. It was indeed immature of me, and I was acting somewhat biased a bit. |
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Post by El Maiz on Apr 8, 2011 19:34:12 GMT -5
I would be really surpried if you were right, Generic
I'll go with it being Master Chief here.
or Ratchet. Yer. Definitely Ratchet.
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