The Ancient Minister

[DGN]

Olimar has 6 attacks, not four. Combo, Ftilt, dash attack, up tilt, down tilt, nair. As well as his final smash.

The thing with the pikmin is that they can easily follow him, not like with the Minister, having to summon them every time he wants to use them.

And instead of having a ROB launcher fire a missle, why not have the Minister fire a missle? It wouldn't be too farfetch'd, due to being the master of ROBs.

[El Maiz]

I'm just going to say that summoning sounds rather awkward.

BUT, Olimar is awkward.

Heck, if you think about it, Mr. Game & Watch uses other things to fight. Should you just play as his chair and turtle?
Should we kick out R.O.B and just play as his arms?

I still support AM. A (fan-made) smaller version of Master Hand doesn't measure up in the slightest.

[Dettadeus]

Jun 19, 2011 8:15:21 GMT -5 DGN said:

Olimar has 6 attacks, not four. Combo, Ftilt, dash attack, up tilt, down tilt, nair. As well as his final smash.

The thing with the pikmin is that they can easily follow him, not like with the Minister, having to summon them every time he wants to use them.

And instead of having a ROB launcher fire a missle, why not have the Minister fire a missle? It wouldn't be too farfetch'd, due to being the master of ROBs.

Forgot about F- and D-tilts.

Anyways, you can't have the minister fire the rocket. R.O.B. Launchers have specially made heads that are built for firing missiles. They don't have laser-firing capabilities because their eyes were replaced with a firing mechanism.

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Jun 19, 2011 8:23:59 GMT -5 El Maiz said:

I'm just going to say that summoning sounds rather awkward.

BUT, Olimar is awkward.

Heck, if you think about it, Mr. Game & Watch uses other things to fight. Should you just play as his chair and turtle?
Should we kick out R.O.B and just play as his arms?

I still support AM. A (fan-made) smaller version of Master Hand doesn't measure up in the slightest.

If you're not going to make a decent arguement, don't make one at all.
Arms are an ACTUAL PART of the character to where they FIGHT ON THEIR OWN.
The turtle and chair are WEAPONS that Game & Watch pulls out of hammerspace to FIGHT with. He doesn't SUMMON them to fight for him.
Summoning someone to attack FOR you is a far different story.

And Olimar is different. The Pikmin follow him around and he USES THEM AS WEAPONS. AND, in the Japanese version of Brawl as well as all versions of the Dojo list Olimar as "Pikmin and Olimar". Pikmin get the top billing because they are the ones that do most of the fighting. It's changed in the English version of Brawl to shorten the name.
The idea of the Minister is where "*POOF* A R.O.B./Primid/Shadow Bug clump appears and attacks while the Minister sits there. *POOF* They're gone." What's the point of the Minister then?

And to counter Detta's argument against Primid: The Primid has shown potential for a full moveset, unlike the Minister, who has shown nothing at all but it's own limitations.
And of course the idea of a Hand being playable doesn't measure up. It far EXCEEDS the Minister.

But it's better off that there is NO Smash original character.
Some are bosses (The Hands, Tabuu, Galleom, Duon)
Others are mooks (Polygons, Wire Frames, Alloys, Subspace Army)
Others are pointless (Sandbag, Ancient Minister)
and ORIGINAL original characters are frowned upon (Apprentice Hand).

Personally, I can see Sandbag being made into a character more than the Minister.

[El Maiz]

I dunno, my argument was pretty good.


Yeah, let's get rid of the Minister. The Shadow bugs summon themselves.

I'm going to say that I don't need ridiculously long posts. I'm already right, I don't need to convince myself.

[Dettadeus]

How in the world would the Sand Bag be unique? Anyone can do exactly what it does, minus the item spawning. And it has zero moveset potential because it's a sandbag. It can't jump, nor move on its own in the first place, it has no viability either. And representation does not a good character make.

Perhaps instead of "The Ancient Minister" it could be "The Subspace Team" or something of that general idea. Since The Ancient Minister commands the Subspace Army for most of the game, it would make sense that he would be the base character and would have other parts of the army assist him in fighting.

[El Maiz]

For Sandbag, he would summon random Smashers to hit in so that he could move around.

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Jun 19, 2011 12:21:55 GMT -5 El Maiz said:

I dunno, my argument was pretty good.


Yeah, let's get rid of the Minister. The Shadow bugs summon themselves.

I'm going to say that I don't need ridiculously long posts. I'm already right, I don't need to convince myself.

Your argument was flawed.
You compared someone's ARMS and WEAPONS to a SUMMON.

And when you claim that you are right, you are wrong. I am not claiming that I am right, I'm merely bringing counterarguments. No one is right or wrong in this; just conflicting opinions, and opinions are never wrong.

There are however, faulty arguments, which you have proven. As well as being childish by knocking down my karma.

@detta:
"How in the world would the Sand Bag be unique? Anyone can do exactly what it does, minus the item spawning. And it has zero moveset potential because it's a sandbag. It can't jump, nor move on its own in the first place, it has no viability either. And representation does not a good character make."

In Melee, when you hack to play as Sandbag, he can slide across the floor and jump. HIGH. He can't double jump, however, as it freezes the game. He also cannot do anything but move and jump because it freezes the game.
HOWEVER, a moveset (that actually makes sense, mind you) can easily be made for him. In fact, I'll make one, and post it when it's finished. I have proven people wrong when they said Tingle had no moveset potential, I can prove Sandbag can as well.
As for representation, it is used for a sidegame in BOTH Melee and Brawl, as well as an item in Brawl. AND, it is famous for the CD Factories. Minister has nowhere NEAR Sandbag's popularity.
And it's ironic that you say Sandbag has no moveset potential when you are a fan of the "Captain Falcon" argument as well as made up a moveset for the Minister.

[DGN]

Hack =/= true appearance.

I also forget where I saw it, but I'm certain I saw a moveset and sprite sheet for sandbag somewhere.
He'd ride on items like the shell to move. He'd basically just use items in the game, which is kind of pointless.

[Dettadeus]

Oh look. Doing anything but moving and jumping freezes the game? Perhaps he has no moves for a reason.
I'll have to wait to see the moveset before I can comment on it.

Like you said, Captain Falcon had something to work with. The Minister has the Subspace Army to work with. The Sang Bag has... sandbagging. It has no appendages or means of self propulsion (that hack doesn't prove much; the fact that it's a sandbag not meant to move on its own stays intact).

EDIT DGN's ninja post:
If he uses items to move around and attack, that's no different from the Minister using Shadow Bugs in his attacks.

Also @golden and the summoning shadow bugs thing: Hammerspace. G&W can do it (although it's been theorized since the SSE that most of his weapons are formed from Shadow Bugs), Kirby can do it, a lot of characters can pull things from it. Technically R.O.B. pulls his Gyro Spinner from Hammerspace. So why is it outlandish to say that the Minister could pull Shadow Bugs out of Hammerspace?

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Jun 19, 2011 12:44:33 GMT -5 DGN said:

Hack =/= true appearance.

I also forget where I saw it, but I'm certain I saw a moveset and sprite sheet for sandbag somewhere.
He'd ride on items like the shell to move. He'd basically just use items in the game, which is kind of pointless.

*Facepalm*
The hack was to show that he WAS able to move and jump.
And clearly, there's more that can be done. If you think he's limited to using items, you are sadly mistaken. Give me until tomorrow (because today is Father's Day), and I'll show you a moveset.

@detta: Yeah, because Falcon is known for making firey punches and kicks.
He had absolutely nothing to work with. Just like Sandbag.
Falcon drove a racecar. Sure, he's a bounty hunter, but last I checked, bounter hunter did not mean fire punches and kicks.

[DGN]

did he have sprites within the game showing he was able to, or did he just slide around and be motionless while doing the moveset?
If the latter, it doesn't count.

[Dettadeus]

Captain Falcon is given moves to fight with that somewhat make sense (as he gives off a bit of a "superhero" vibe by his appearance)

You were saying, Golden?

And Generic, the word you're looking for is "Animations" not "sprites".

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Jun 19, 2011 12:50:29 GMT -5 DGN said:

did he have sprites within the game showing he was able to, or did he just slide around and be motionless while doing the moveset?
If the latter, it doesn't count.

1. It's a 3D model, not sprites.
2. "Doesn't count"? Not a good argument. And so what if he's motionless? Makes him unique. I mean, look at R.O.B.'s slow walk. All he's doing is vibrating; nothing else.


@detta: Yeah, he was given moves to work with based on appearance. That's exactly what I'm doing with Sandbag.
And if you notice, he had nothing to work with. They MADE UP moves based on his appearance.
You can't use my own quote against me.

Just because you have a lack of creativity on the matter of Sandbag doesn't mean it's impossible.

[DGN]

"It's a 3D model, not sprites."
...
*slaps self*

and at least you can tell ROB is moving. He leans forward a bit, so you can tell he's trying to move.
With sandbag, it just wouldn't look right, which would decrease viability.
If we did what the sheet did, of him moving by riding and spinning along a turtle shell, that would make more sense as we can tell he's actually being animated.

[Dettadeus]

R.O.B.'s slow walk at least includes his Robo-Burner lifting him off the ground and propelling him forward slightly (it's just less noticeable than his normal walk and run).

Shall we put the discussion on hold until you have that moveset, or is there more to discuss?

Also I have yard work to do so I'll have to take a break anyways.

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Not in the slow walk, Generic. In the slow walk, R.O.B. literally stands motionless while upright and is vibrating.

And explain how it would decrease viability.

[DGN]

Viability is how the character would fit in.
If you look at everyone else having an animation for 99% of all the moves in the game, then see this one character that has no animation for a few things, it'd seem a bit odd.

And I plan on making a moveset for sand bag as well. Just bringing that up.

[ensane]

Jun 19, 2011 12:52:57 GMT -5 GoldenYuiitusin said:

Jun 19, 2011 12:50:29 GMT -5 DGN said:

did he have sprites within the game showing he was able to, or did he just slide around and be motionless while doing the moveset?
If the latter, it doesn't count.

1. It's a 3D model, not sprites.
2. "Doesn't count"? Not a good argument. And so what if he's motionless? Makes him unique. I mean, look at R.O.B.'s slow walk. All he's doing is vibrating; nothing else.


@detta: Yeah, he was given moves to work with based on appearance. That's exactly what I'm doing with Sandbag.
And if you notice, he had nothing to work with. They MADE UP moves based on his appearance.
You can't use my own quote against me.
Just because you have a lack of creativity on the matter of Sandbag doesn't mean it's impossible.

Just replace the bolded/underlined Sandbag with "Ancient Minister."

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I'm not saying that Ancient Minister is impossible. I'm saying that making him primarily based on summons is stupid. Even using the kunai as appendages was a better idea. And now that I think about it, not too farfetched, as Sonic used his SPINES to attack in Brawl, and they are pretty much just hair.

Once again, you can't use my own quote against me.

Also:

Slow Walk: Slides across the ground while motionless.
Medium Walk: Leans forward while sliding.
Fast Walk: Bobs up and down while moving forward.
Run: Hops along ground like how the cans do in Digimon Rumble Arena 2. (There is a stage called The Cannery that if you fall into the machine, your Digimon is turned into a can.)
Neutral Combo: Swings “head” back and forth.
Neutral Forward: Slams “head” forward.
Dash Attack: Tackles in front.
Neutral Up: Extends “head” upward.
Neutral Down: Flings “bottom” out.
Forward Smash: Strong “head” charge forward.
Up Smash: Flips up like Shadow’s 3rd attack in his combo in Shadow the Hedgehog, however, it hits twice; the “head” and the “bottom”.
Down Smash: Flops like a fish.
Neutral Air: Spins.
Forward Air: “Kicks” forward with the “bottom”.
Back Air: “Kicks” back with the “bottom”.
Up Air: Flips upside down, and extends “bottom” upward.
Down Air: Slams down like the cans in Digimon Rumble Arena 2. (When in a can, you can only move, jump, and slam down by using a down-Neutral attack in the air.)
Grab: A small glove appears in front of him and grabs. (I admit, this is made up because It’s hard to otherwise make an effective grab. This is also based on Moai from DreamMix TV World Fighters, as it’s similar to how he grabs as well. The glove looks like Master Hand in the original Smash.)
Pummel: The glove squeezes the opponent.
Forward Throw: The glove tosses opponent forward.
Up Throw: The glove tosses the opponent up.
Back Throw: Sandbag swings behind and flings the opponent back.
Down Throw: Slams opponent down, and Sandbag jumps on them.
Neutral Special: Item Spawn-Sandbag pulls a random battering item or shooting item out to use. Cannot be done if holding an item.
Forward Special: Target Test-Sandbag flings a Target at the opponent. They can be broken, but if they are broken near the opponent, the force damages the opponent. (I know Sandbag and Target have nothing to do with each other, but this is only for one move.)
Up Special: Home-Run-A bat appears below Sandbag, and hits him upwards. No damage is taken by Sandbag.
Down Special: Punch Bag Counter-Sandbag flashes, and while in this state, when he’s hit, his “head” gets cocked back, and swings at the opponent to counter. Sandbag DOES take damage in this case, but the damage and knockback is doubled on the opponent. I would advise not using a Falcon Punch….
Final Smash: Super Sudden Death-Causes a massive rain of Bob-Ombs like in Sudden Death, however, they rain more, rain faster, and don’t harm Sandbag.




I admit, not my best work, but then again, I don't really care much for Sandbag TBH. I just made this to prove it can be done.
IMO, Tabuu is the best choice. He represents the SSE and was actually considered by the Devs of Crusade at some point.