The Ancient Minister

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Jun 19, 2011 13:35:25 GMT -5 Dettadeus said:

I gotta give props to Ensane, that was pretty good. Not really. I never said the Ancient Minster was impossible. But go ahead, find what you WANT to hear good.

But on the topic of viability, something that has no real means of self-propulsion doesn't fit into a game like Smash (as a playable character). How exactly did it move in that hack? Was it just inching forward? When it jumped, did the model simply move up, change to the aerial model, and then fall? So Gooey should not be in Crusade either due to having no real means of self-propulsion. And yes, that's exactly how Sandbag worked.

You seem to have missed my previous post.
EDIT: I see. You deleted your previous post.

[DGN]

I personally think Sandbag could have a much better moveset, incorporating things from smash.
Just wait for night time, and I'll do it with the exact same format you did Golden, considering orders.

[Dettadeus]

Ok, you've made a moveset. Most of it includes the sandbag simply ramming, tackling or headbutting the opponent in some way. By the looks of this, all of the Sandbag's attacks are essentially the same thing in a different direction. You could say the same for sword-based characters like Marth, but hey, using a sword in most of your attacks makes more sense anyways.
How would the Sandbag hold the items? The glove again? You'd need to make an extra set of sprites with the glove included.
Also, the grab could be done by simply having Sandbag pressure his opponent into the ground by leaning on them, but then there's no glove to throw with (but hey, you still have a d-throw).

All this doesn't change the fact that the Sandbag still cannot canonically move on its own, and that's what wrecks the moveset. This is the same reason I had to take out the Minister's kunai-based attacks.

And sorry about deleting it, I hadn't seen that you had posted and believed it was irrelevant.
Gooey can move himself. It's sort of a scootching motion, almost like the way a caterpillar moves. By expanding, contracting and squishing himself, he is able to jump and perform some attacks. For others he just pulls things out of hammerspace or uses his tongue.

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Jun 19, 2011 13:44:31 GMT -5 Dettadeus said:

Ok, you've made a moveset. Most of it includes the sandbag simply ramming, tackling or headbutting the opponent in some way. By the looks of this, all of the Sandbag's attacks are essentially the same thing in a different direction. You could say the same for sword-based characters like Marth, but hey, using a sword in most of your attacks makes more sense anyways.
How would the Sandbag hold the items? The glove again? You'd need to make an extra set of sprites with the glove included.
Also, the grab could be done by simply having Sandbag pressure his opponent into the ground by leaning on them, but then there's no glove to throw with (but hey, you still have a d-throw). Once again, I say it's not my best work as I really don't CARE for Sandbag. I just wanted to prove that it can be done.

All this doesn't change the fact that the Sandbag still cannot canonically move on its own, and that's what wrecks the moveset. This is the same reason I had to take out the Minister's kunai-based attacks. Well then, we should take out Captain Falcon for not having a canon moveset, or change Bowser's dash, as he cannot canonly skate across the ground with his claws. Smash=/=Canon dude. The kunai were fine. Otherwise he suffers the same problem as Sandbag.

And sorry about deleting it, I hadn't seen that you had posted and believed it was irrelevant.

Responses in Yellow.

[Dettadeus]

Those are less of an issue than not being able to move in the first place.

One of my other ideas though is to have the Shadow Bugs use the kunai as supplementary weapons.
Also, I hope you've seen my edit.

[El Maiz]

I wasn't being childish, I lowered your karma because you weren't being polite.

I'd count Captain Falcon's moveset as canon, because Nintendo made it.

*Spoilers* Nintendo also made Captain Falcon.

[DGN]

blah, couldn't wait for night.

My moveset:

Walk: Sandbag spins and rides along a green shell.
Run: Sandbag spins and rides along a red shell.
Neutral Combo: Sandbag uses a fan to repeatedly attack the enemy. This isn't as overpowered as the fan item, as when you use it you don't slide along with the opponent.
Neutral Forward: Sandbag uses a Lip's Stick, which is used the same way itis as an item. However, the flower stays for a shorter time.
Dash Attack: Sandbag falls off of the shell, which continues to go forward and attacks the opponent, but it may dissapear.
Neutral Up: a trophy of Mario, Master Hand, or Tabuu appears on top of Sandbag's head, and makes the enemy go upward.
Neutral Down: A unira appears in front of Sandbag and unleashes the spikes.
Forward Smash: Charging: spins around with the home run bat vertical near him. Attack: hits the opponent with the home run bat horizontal. Note that the power of the bat is reduced.
Up Smash: A Party Ball appears above him, which drops two Bob-ombs to both sides of him, exploding on the spot. Enemies can also receive light damage from the party ball.
Down Smash: Charging: A motion-sensor bomb appears diagonally above sandbag. Attack: He drops it, and it explodes on contact with the ground.
Jump: A motion sensor bomb boosts him up, but he does not take damage.
Double Jump: A bumper appears below him for a brief second to make him go upwards.
Neutral Air: Sandbag spins around with yellow shocks like a screw attack.
Forward Air: uses the fire flower for a bit.
Back Air: Has a flipper behind him, which spins, doing damage.
Up Air: Opens up a parasol above him, doing damage if anyone touches it and safely bringing him downwards slowly.
Down Air: Rides a warp star downwards. Damage is decreased, of course.
Grab: a barrel cannon appears, trapping the enemy inside.
Pummel: stabs with the beam sword.
Forward Throw: the barrel cannon shoots the opponent forwards.
Up Throw: the barrel cannon shoots the opponent upwards.
Back Throw: the barrel cannon shoots the opponent backwards.
Down Throw: Sandbag throws a bob-omb into the barrel cannon, making the cannon and the opponent explode.
Neutral Special: A ray gun, super scope, or star wand appears and is held by the sandbag. If it's a ray gun, he shoots three times. if its a super scope, he charges medium and shoots. If it's a star rod, he does what a star rod does.
Forward Special: Sandbag throws either a capsule, a poke ball, a bob-omb, a gooey bomb, or a hothead.
Up Special: A spring boosts sandbag upwards. The spring stays, and does what it does.
Down Special: Two bumpers appear near sandbag for a brief second, making an enemy go back a far distance, but no damage is done.
Final Smash: Sandbag puts on a bunny hood, uses a Starman, rides a warp star to move around, and has a golden hammer in front of him and a regular hammer in back of him. the power-up music plays here.

I understand sandbag cannot randomly make an item summon, but I'm afraid that's all I have.
I did incorporate the fact that he can't move on his own, but he can still fight well.

[Dettadeus]

That's more Captain Falcon'd than Captain Falcon himself. Especially the final smash.
And I noticed a lot of attacks were essentially taken from other characters.
F-Smash: Ness.
U-Special: Sonic.
Jump: Similar concept to Bomberman's U-Special.

Also his S-Special wouldn't work because, really, having the chance of summoning Ho-Oh with your S-Special? Spawning personal items (Gyro, Bombs) is one thing, spawning normal items is another.
I actually prefer Golden's moveset to this.

But enough about Sandbag. Let's get back to the topic at hand.

[El Maiz]

Which is how spiff AM looks in that suit.

[ensane]

Hmm, honestly I don't support AM, but summoning things to fight isn't really that implausible. I've seen it done before, and it's worked out okay. Golden, were you being serious about a Master Hand type character being playable?

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Jun 19, 2011 14:00:21 GMT -5 El Maiz said:

I wasn't being childish, I lowered your karma because you weren't being polite.

I'd count Captain Falcon's moveset as canon, because Nintendo made it.

*Spoilers* Nintendo also made Captain Falcon.

The only thing I said was "If you can't make a decent argument, don't make one at all." before you lowered my Karma.

So pretty much you lowered my Karma for saying something you don't want to hear, depite it being the truth.

And no **** Nintendo made Captain Falcon. But his moves are not canon TO HIS GAMES. Which is what Detta and I were arguing about. He says that the Minister shouldn't use his kunai because he didn't use it in Brawl. However, the Minister barely did ANYTHING to warrant a moveset anyway, so why not use them? I mean, they're right there. And this is a fangame, why worry about "canon" for a character that barely did anything? Especially for a non-canon game.

Also, I found a key argument. @detta: The Minister has no means of jumping. I just realized that. His entire body is covered by the costume, meaning he CAN'T use the Robo-Burner at all, or it would burn the costume. Don't believe me? Look at his trophy and turn it to where you see under him.

ensane: Yes, I was serious. And while it works for a 3-D fighting game, it cannot be done properly in a 2D or 2.5D fighter like Smash.

[Dettadeus]

The Ancient Minister's armor has add ons to the regular R.O.B: increased durablity, a laser canon mounted to its bottom, and some sort of anti-gravity device that lets it float.

Bam. Although that means I may have to de-clone his B-Air and D-Air, or simply change them to a blast of gravitational force as opposed to a blast of rocket fuel.

[DGN]

If you look at the video you posted earlier, you see that he's on a flying machine.
THAT'S the anti-gravity device.
HOWEVER, IIRC, in the video where Minister is revealed to be ROB, he moves about to try and stop the ROBs from exploding the place.

[Dettadeus]

How does he get on it in the first place then? He has to have some way of jumping and self propulsion.

[GoldenYuiitusin]

DGN: That...is actualy not that different from how Hiruko (from Naruto) is strangely able to slide across floors when it was revealed that he had arms and legs under the cloak.

Both are unexplained to this day....

@detta: Simple. The R.O.B.s help him on.

[Dettadeus]

Oh god not that guy... @_@

The point is he can move on his own, likely including jumping.
Although I AM going to have to redo his B-Air and D-air now. And I have a hilarious idea for a d-air: Metal Primid. He just drops a Metal Primid and it falls down. Meteor Smash/Spike if it hits directly or in the first few frames. If it hits a solid surface, such as the ground, it disintegrates back into Shadow Bugs.

Also if anyone cares, I added some more Primid sprites into my last post on my art thread.

[DGN]

:22-:25
If you listen carefully, you can hear a "phwoom" sound when he moves. My guess is that it's the same thing as R.O.B., due to moving and spinning around in the fashion that R.O.B does, and the fact that he is a R.O.B.
He also slams into the other R.O.B.s. Dash attack, right thar.

[ensane]

Jun 19, 2011 17:47:12 GMT -5 GoldenYuiitusin said:

Jun 19, 2011 14:00:21 GMT -5 El Maiz said:

I wasn't being childish, I lowered your karma because you weren't being polite.

I'd count Captain Falcon's moveset as canon, because Nintendo made it.

*Spoilers* Nintendo also made Captain Falcon.

The only thing I said was "If you can't make a decent argument, don't make one at all." before you lowered my Karma.

So pretty much you lowered my Karma for saying something you don't want to hear, depite it being the truth.

And no **** Nintendo made Captain Falcon. But his moves are not canon TO HIS GAMES. Which is what Detta and I were arguing about. He says that the Minister shouldn't use his kunai because he didn't use it in Brawl. However, the Minister barely did ANYTHING to warrant a moveset anyway, so why not use them? I mean, they're right there. And this is a fangame, why worry about "canon" for a character that barely did anything? Especially for a non-canon game.

Also, I found a key argument. @detta: The Minister has no means of jumping. I just realized that. His entire body is covered by the costume, meaning he CAN'T use the Robo-Burner at all, or it would burn the costume. Don't believe me? Look at his trophy and turn it to where you see under him.

ensane: Yes, I was serious. And while it works for a 3-D fighting game, it cannot be done properly in a 2D or 2.5D fighter like Smash.

I meant I've seen summon-type characters in a 2D sprite based fighting game, and it was executed well. I should have been more clear, sorry.

EDIT: Also, Hiruko didn't slide, even with his cloak on. He's just so deformed that the cloak drags on the ground and covers his handprints/footprints.

[El Maiz]

Minister wears a non-flammable cloak.

[Dettadeus]

Despite the fact that it caught on fire in one of the cutscenes after about 10 R.O.B. Sentries fired lasers at him. >_>

Anyways, going by your "It doesn't have to be completely canon" argument, Golden, the Minister could use the Robo-Burner to jump.