Official v2 Tier List Crusade 0.6

[Chaotic Chao]

Felipe, you can't be right about everything. I think that's the main thing you have to understand. More people agree with Zeldasmash's tier list, but that doesn't mean he's always right either. I'm not always right, neither is Generic, NOBODY.

I seriously think your tier list is heavily based on opinion since you're probably too stubborn to actually play as the characters and test their playability.

[Felipe_9595]

And you dont know how to read , i sayd how many levels of charge had toad, each one with his specific frame.


Ignorant??? no sir, you are the ignorant for ignoring (lol) facts. And LOOOOOL the first char that i used was Link, i can bet you dont know how to gain extra height. I know and i know why he is so bad. The frame data confirms what i am saying.

And ice LINK. DURPHURP you know what a tierlist mean?

how 2 characters is going to eprform each toerh with 2 players of the SAME LEVEL.

If you are a link mainer and you dislike the facts. then ignore it (i play brawl and i main lucas, and i play tournaments with lucas,but i know he is bad. You can play with yoshi, but youc ant say he is good. because he is abd. Same goes for link) , but you can say he is good based on your personal opinions. I am pointing facts.

EDIT: ninjaed

Man, it hink you know i have the Source Code of the game no?? Before i say anything, i check the script of the attacks. Thats how i know Shine to Shine is a true combo. Thats how i know Fox up b have a superarmor until frame 24. thats how i know mario upsmash last 39 Frames. I can check every aspect of the game. Link is bad,, look, i will show why his ground game is bad (Only upsmash is decent, it comes out in frame 7:

Dsmash: Base damage 14. uncharged it longs 54 frames. Almost a second. Easily punishable

Ina second i will tell you about his other moves

[Chaotic Chao]

You know how I know Link is good? I played as him and did very well due to his good strength and range. And you are ignoring everything I'm saying. Just because YOU think it's right DOES NOT mean it's factual.

But I should pretty much give up. You do not listen to reason and you don't listen to anything. You just THINK we're wrong. And I should know, just because you think something doesn't mean you're right.

[The 85.]

@felipe Could you improve your grammar? And also:
JUST TEST THE CHARACTERS IN-GAME. :/

[Chaotic Chao]

Jul 29, 2011 16:29:34 GMT -5 The 85. said:

@felipe Could you improve your grammar? And also:
JUST TEST THE CHARACTERS IN-GAME. :/

THIS THIS THIS THIS!
Please, just, READ this.

[Felipe_9595]

TEH HELL!!! I HAVE FAR MORE EXPERIENCE THAN ALL OF YOU IN EVERY SMASH GAME!!! I HAVE PLAYED MELEE SINCE 2007 AND I HAVE BEEN PLAYING CRUSADE SINCE 0.3. YOU REALLY THINK I HAVE NOT PLAYED WITH LINK?? LINK IS BAD; I HAVE SHOW ALL THE PROOF YOU NEED AND YOU DONT ACCEPT IT. STOP BEING SUCH A NOOBS AND UNDERSTAND LINK IS BAD!!!

ALL OF HIS SMASH LAST <54 FRAMES; THATS ALMOST A SECOND. HIS TILTS. THE ONLY THING HE HAVES IS PRIORITY. NOTHING ELSE

EDIT. Utilt and Dtilt last 32 frames, easily punishable. Even his aerials are laggy. He haves good priority (His dair have a priority of 4, the highest of the game) BUT IT LAST A SECOND. And his nair, his only LAGLESS APPROACh HAVE A PRIORITY OF 1. MARIO's JAB CAN DEAL WITH IT

[Chaotic Chao]

Link is only bad because you aren't good with him. I am good with him. I win with him. With CPU'S on high.

...So, you having fun with caps lock?

[Felipe_9595]

Man, you are new tot he smash no?

Link is only bad because you aren't good with him. I am good with him. I win with him. With CPU'S on high.

...So, you having fun with caps lock?

Cpus mean nothing. Cpus sucks except or shielding.

You are good against cpus, not players. Durp

You win, again, against cpu. Another Durp

You pretty much ignroed all i said about the lag of his attacks. Link is bad.

[DGN]

Wow, I hadn't wanted to say anything, but...it appears I was right.
Felipe WAS having worse grammar because he was intimidated.
But it wasn't the problem that you HAVEN'T played as Link-It's just that you didn't play as Link when making the tier list.

And inb4Oh hey, felipe. Enjoy your infraction.

[Felipe_9595]

Elaborate. havent insulted anyone. using caps is not Infraction worthy

I played a match with every character to test my theory first. So no.

[The 85.]

@felipe Lag doesn't mean that the character totally sucks. Just play with Link, you can't say that he sucks if you haven't played with him.

[Chaotic Chao]

Cpus mean nothing. Cpus sucks except or shielding.

You are good against cpus, not players. Durp

You win, again, against cpu. Another Durp

This proves that Link is only bad based on your opinions.

You can't play crusade with other experienced players. Just CPUs. Hard ones. Thus, you cannot say Link is bad based on anything but that and this frame data which isn't even all that important. You could only have judged Link based on his gameplay against CPU's. Saying CPU's mean nothing therefore means that you judged Link either completely by the frame data alone or some other method. If you DID judge Link by his performance against CPUs, it means that you said that your own tactic of judging means nothing. Also note that Link plays completely different in Crusade then he does in Brawl, so Brawl Link should have no effect on his Crusade counterpart.

Please explain this.

[DGN]

Jul 29, 2011 16:39:24 GMT -5 Felipe_9595 said:

TEH HELL!!! I HAVE FAR MORE EXPERIENCE THAN ALL OF YOU IN EVERY SMASH GAME!!! I HAVE PLAYED MELEE SINCE 2007 AND I HAVE BEEN PLAYING CRUSADE SINCE 0.3. YOU REALLY THINK I HAVE NOT PLAYED WITH LINK?? LINK IS BAD; I HAVE SHOW ALL THE PROOF YOU NEED AND YOU DONT ACCEPT IT. STOP BEING SUCH A NOOBS AND UNDERSTAND LINK IS BAD!!!

THIS is what I mean, felipe. "I HAVE FAR MORE EXPERIENCE!". "STOP BENG SUCH A NOOBS AN UNDERSTAND LINK IS BAD!!!". But if anything, it's at LEAST a tantrum. Act your age, man.

And Like CC(chaotic chao) said. It's pointless to argue with you. So yah, I'm gonna stop now. Have fun with being banned.

[Chaotic Chao]

Jul 29, 2011 16:39:24 GMT -5 Felipe_9595 said:

TEH HELL!!! I HAVE FAR MORE EXPERIENCE THAN ALL OF YOU IN EVERY SMASH GAME!!! I HAVE PLAYED MELEE SINCE 2007 AND I HAVE BEEN PLAYING CRUSADE SINCE 0.3. YOU REALLY THINK I HAVE NOT PLAYED WITH LINK?? LINK IS BAD; I HAVE SHOW ALL THE PROOF YOU NEED AND YOU DONT ACCEPT IT. STOP BEING SUCH A NOOBS AND UNDERSTAND LINK IS BAD!!!

ALL OF HIS SMASH LAST <54 FRAMES; THATS ALMOST A SECOND. HIS TILTS. THE ONLY THING HE HAVES IS PRIORITY. NOTHING ELSE

EDIT. Utilt and Dtilt last 32 frames, easily punishable. Even his aerials are laggy. He haves good priority (His dair have a priority of 4, the highest of the game) BUT IT LAST A SECOND. And his nair, his only LAGLESS APPROACh HAVE A PRIORITY OF 1. MARIO's JAB CAN DEAL WITH IT

This is what I call a "breakdown" in Phoenix Wright terms.
Felipe, if you're so good at this game, I can team up with Generic and the .85 and you can be all alone. If you're really such a god-like player, it should be a problem, right (I don't actually wanna do this. Mostly because I can't pause when playing online and something always turns up randomly. Plus, I think .85 said he didn't have his wii yet...I think)?

[Dettadeus]

Hey. Hey Felipe. See Reply #185? It breaks a number of rules. And I've given you FAR too many chances already. *bans for 3 days*
I'll be back with relevant replies in a bit; have to do Moderator stuff real quick.

[Zeldasmash]

Felipe. Frame data has absolutely nothing on how the character performs in battle. Link is high tier because of how well he performs against opponents and his attributes. Frame data is just data used to MAKE the characters. That kind of data has nothing to do with tier positions. Toad is a high tier due to his amazing capabilities and because of how well he fares against opponents. Wario fares rather poor against opponents. Snake also has this problem.

Frame Data has absolutely nothing to do with the character's performs in battle.

[Excalibur]

Jul 29, 2011 16:59:04 GMT -5 Dettadeus said:

Hey. Hey Felipe. See Reply #185? It breaks a number of rules. And I've given you FAR too many chances already. *bans for 3 days*
I'll be back with relevant replies in a bit; have to do Moderator stuff real quick.

My god. Thank you Det, Felipe was getting out of control. Such an arrogant little brat won't understand his mistakes. Saying he's the "Best Smash Player". Ha, I scoff at that. Anyways, wouldn't it be best if he was banned from this section? Since he is most likely to come back and argue all over again.

[Dettadeus]

Back with replies:

I still don't understand why I have to explain this over and over: Tournaments don't directly affect tier lists. The Brawl tier list ranks characters by how likely it is they'll win a match while taking into account the Unity Ruleset is being used. It mostly takes into account the matchups of the characters on various stages. How is the metagame developed so you can analyze matchups? Tournaments. But that doesn't mean if R.O.B. suddenly wins a bunch of national tournaments he'll automatically move up. It might just mean that the people at those tourneys weren't familiar with the matchup (R.O.B. being a fairly uncommon character) and the player took advantage of that while knowing his matchup very well (every Brawl tourney player should know the Meta Knight matchup for their character inside and out, to name a specific example).
Anyways, now that I'm done with that little rant...

As I've been telling him on MSN over the last half hour, Frame Data doesn't make a tier list. Application of it does. Frame Data will very rarely define an Advanced Technique that brings a character up higher in the list. Take Diddy for example. The usefulness of his banana peels aren't defined in his frame data, nor are the potential uses for them. Glide Tossing wasn't intended to happen, which also contributes. Putting the two together makes Diddy a horrible character to meet up with in a match. Dedede is another example I used; considering his frame data, he would be in a crappier tier because almost ALL of his attacks are insanely slow. However, he has a redeeming factor in his chain grab, and that somehow cancels out the fact that his attacks are even more laggy than Link.

Excalibur: Keep in mind that YOU contributed as well by egging him on a few pages back. I should be giving you a 10-25% infraction for minor flaming and temporarily derailing the topic, but alas, infractions are not a part of my power as a moderator.
And be easy on the insults. As in, don't make insults. They're infractable offenses, categorized under Minor Flaming.


Anyways, I've been talking with Felipe, calming him down, and having a nice little discussion that proved to him that frame data doesn't a character's tier list ranking make. When he comes back, he'll hopefully be a bit calmer (and I'm counting on YOU guys to not start things up again) and less "derp you're wrong I'm right because I can see the frame data".

Now then. Back on topic.

[ensane]

Alright, I think Detta is right. First comes the playstyle and tactics of the character. The analogy with MK is that when Brawl first came out people thought he sucked because his attacks did little damage and he only had 2 consistent kill moves. When people started using the hit and run, passive aggressive poking style, it worked. When they look at frame data, it supports that those tactics are effective.

As for Toad, I've been quiet about him, but his nspecial does lag too much against most characters. If I even see him start it, I start planning how to punish it. His up special is great going up, but vulnerable from below when he's descending. If it doesn't grab the ledge, it will be punished, not even counting projectiles. He's fast, but unlike MK or Luigi, his range/priority don't quite add up. That being said, I don't play as Toad, so if there's some aspect of his playstyle I'm missing, please let me know.

With Link, I'm actually playing him more like Brawl, but without the control. So many of his moves are punishable that you really have to play spot on. Still testing though.

[dry]

Guys... because the physics in crusade are very similar to the physics in brawl, wouldn't it be easier to take into account the changes from brawl to crusade (for veterans only, obviously)?

So for example, how has Meta Knight changed?
Pros:
-Much, MUCH smaller
-Faster falling speed
-Dimensional Cape now serves a use as an escape move due to long distance
-Shuttle Loop now has huge distance in comparison to body size
-Finishers are much easier to sweetspot due to reduced range
-New neutral air sets up both his main finishers
-A chaingrab (down throw)

Cons:
-Less range
-Less power on finishers
-Mach Tornado nerf (not too big a problem, because despite popular belief, this move doesn't really do anything other than approach, which Meta Knight can also do with Drill Rush, side airs and Dimensional Cape mindgames)
-Less vertical recovery distance
-Up air and down air are MUCH slower

That's all I can think of now, and I'm probably wrong on some of them, and there are probably some that I've missed out, but Meta Knight's clearly changed for the worse in this game. So he should go down a bit on the tier list (not too much; I'm gonna argue for 2nd place, against that stun locking fox).

Another example, Link.
Pros:
-Longer range
-Much better recovery (even if it still sucks...)
-Reflector (although it has short duration and little range, it's still a reflector)
-Kill moves have been buffed

Cons:
-Loss of boomerang, one of his better projectiles
-Larger target
-Slower falling speed (or at least it feels like it)

Well I don't main Link like I do with Metaknight, so I'm probably even more wrong on this, but Link doesn't seem to have changed too much. So he should be sticking around the lower tiers, but slightly higher than before.

So things like that. Brawl has its own wonderful tier list brought together by at least a hundred professional players and the results of endless tournaments. We should use it to help with perfecting our own tier list.

...and that brings me to Snake. I understand his nerfs (less range, mobility being more important in crusade, grenade nerf, cypher nerf), but I still don't get how that could bring him from 2nd/3rd in Brawl to near the bottom in Crusade. All the other big nerfs in smash history (Jigglypuff, Kirby, etc.) were all due to new game mechanics or a complete crippling of their most important moves. The game mechanics don't seem to have changed too much from Brawl to Crusade, and Snake still has his tilts and C4, so what's the big reason I'm missing?