A Pokemon Poll

[DGN]

That'd be better to just replace Rival when he was still there....
BUT
they say no 7 pokemon reps.
SO OUR POKEMON TRAINER IS GONE!

[gigapichu]

*Funeral is held in his honor*

[PhantomVII]

Apparently you guys are going to keep complaining until you hear my opinion on this, so here goes.

Golden sent me a PM, and I responded, saying exactly why I choose Gengar and Scizor over Squirtle and Ivysaur.

What the **** is this ****?!?

Are you seriously DAFT? Are you ****ing aware that NO ONE voted to have Gengar/Scizor/Charizard?!?
This is Developer's Bias at it's very best. You couldn't stand to have Rival gone, so you keep two of his Pokemon by removing established Smash characters.
And this makes even LESS sense than Rival! I mean what, giving Red a Gengar and a Scizor because "lulz he can have them in the games"? This is bull****! The starters are way more iconic than ****ing nobodies like Gengar and Scizor!" Not only that, but you're getting rid of the most unique character in all of Brawl by removing Ivysaur!

You literally have no respect left. NONE. I thought you were smart, but it seems that stupidity spreads like a virus.

First of all, you should really calm your arse down and understand that this game does not belong to this community and that final decisions are left up to the devs. I assure you that we have plenty of reasons for this decision and that we chose carefully before settling on this.

You refer to a poll that has had a total of 15 voters... a mere 15. A group of 15 people is far too small of a sample to use in this situation, in which probably thousands of people will eventually play this game.

You mentioned that the starters are iconic, and while that is true, repetitive use of them is unnecessary (this is why we left Charizard alone). If you truly believe that Gengar and Scizor are "nobodies", then I suggest you take a look at these links:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gengar

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scizor#Scizor

www.ign.com/top/pokemon/17

www.ign.com/top/pokemon/19

These past two were based on votes.

www.serebiiforums.com/showthread.php?t=328858 - For this one, compare the number of times Gengar and Scizor are listed in the thread to the number of times Squirtle and Ivysaur are listed.

Also, it's simply an opinion that Ivysaur is Brawl's most unique character; you can't really use that as an argument. What about Snake? Or Meta Knight? Sonic? King Dedede? Olimar? R.O.B.?

And on top of all that, insulting me does not help you in any way. If you want to convince me and the other devs that your opinion is the best way to go, show me some evidence. Prove to me that the majority of Smash Bros. players and Pokemon fans would rather replay Squirtle and Ivysaur in this game than play Gengar and Scizor.

That is all I have to say.

[gigapichu]

Phantom, If I may...

Can I suggest a new replacement for Rival?

How about a Cooltrainer?

Give him/her the most popular pokemon, like Gengar and Scizor, but leave Red. He/She could represent the serious pokemon players.

I'll sprite Ivysaur or something if thats the problem, but please, anything to stop the forum madness.

[DGN]

Really, atm all I have to say is that DMX defined popularity as how well people knew the characters, not how liked they were.
If you play Pokemon Red/Blue you can see the starters within the first 10 minutes of playing.
Gengar and Scizor, however, you find later on in the game and therefore aren't as well known.
Also, using too many starters is too repetitive? Gengar is a poison type, and so is Ivysaur in Brawl. Scizor is a steel type, of which Lucario is as well. Yeah, consistency, man.

[Dettadeus]

Ok, so you have reasoning. Great. I see 3 sources, one of which is completely biased (the IGN one. Everywhere I see people talking about IGN "top 100" lists, it ends up being a discussion about how horribly biased the person making it was).

Now I'd like you to answer me this: Does this new Pokemon Trainer really have higher priority than a Brawl vet? What happened to all Brawl vets being on the roster besides ICs? And now that we finally have the ICs on the roster you decide to get rid of a different Brawl vet?

You mentioned that the starters are iconic, and while that is true, repetitive use of them is unnecessary.

If you don't want to be repetitive, why are you including the Original 12 that have been in every Smash game? That's even more repetitive than a character that's only been in one game. If you want Gengar and Scizor so badly, cut one of the 3rd parties and bring Rival back in if you REALLY have to. Then we all get what we want. We have Brawl PT and Zoroark, you and those "thousands of fans" you say will prefer Gengar/Scizor to other, more sensible and iconic Pokemon get a trainer with Gengar and Scizor.

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Here was the reply I sent to that:

First of all, you should really calm your arse down and understand that this game does not belong to this community and that final decisions are left up to the devs. I assure you that we have plenty of reasons for this decision and that we chose carefully before settling on this. Not clearly enough if you feel that you need to remove established characters.

You refer to a poll that has had a total of 15 voters... a mere 15. A group of 15 people is far too small of a sample to use in this situation, in which probably thousands of people will eventually play this game. You clearly overestimate your own game (Let's just say, in a lot of places I go to, most people think very little of Crusade of the ones who know it exists). Also, only a fraction of that amount will know anything about who's being included anyway, so you can't count the ignorant. It's not like all those "thousand" are going to be here and voting. So the ones on the Forum are your best bet when it comes to voting.

You mentioned that the starters are iconic, and while that is true, repetitive use of them is unnecessary (this is why we left Charizard alone). If you truly believe that Gengar and Scizor are "nobodies", then I suggest you take a look at these links:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gengar

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scizor#Scizor

www.ign.com/top/pokemon/17

www.ign.com/top/pokemon/19

These past two were based on votes. First off, why does Charizard stay while the other two go? This is clearly bias. To keep one but axe the other two is favoritism. Especially considering that Squirtle for a while was the 3rd most popular Pokemon (After Pika and Jiggz). And really; Genar and Scizor are nobodies. What purpose have they served in the series? Just two Pokemon you can get. Granted, Jigglypuff at this point is in the same boat, but at least she held the title of the second most popular Pokemon at the time of Smash 64. Ivysaur is also a nobody, but he has connections to Bulbasaur, the 1st Pokemon in the Pokedex, as well as being the 2nd form of the original Grass Starter. And what do both have over Gengar and Scizor? They were both in Smash Bros.

www.serebiiforums.com/showthread.php?t=328858 - For this one, compare the number of times Gengar and Scizor are listed in the thread to the number of times Squirtle and Ivysaur are listed. It just means that they like them. Doesn't mean they are important. And also it's only a small handfull compared to the number of Pokemon fans on the planet. (Yeah, if you're going to use that crap on me, I'm using it on you.) Not only that, but it's just ONE forum.

Also, it's simply an opinion that Ivysaur is Brawl's most unique character; you can't really use that as an argument. What about Snake? Or Meta Knight? Sonic? King Dedede? Olimar? R.O.B.? None of them are full quadropeds that fight primarily using something other than a weapon or their own apendages. So yeah, Ivysaur is far more unique than them. The only two that match his uniqueness are R.O.B. and Olimar. R.O.B., for not having legs, and overall being a robot. Olimar, for plucking up little creatures that he uses to fight with. But neither are full quadropeds.

And on top of all that, insulting me does not help you in any way. If you want to convince me and the other devs that your opinion is the best way to go, show me some evidence. Prove to me that the majority of Smash Bros. players and Pokemon fans would rather replay Squirtle and Ivysaur in this game than play Gengar and Scizor.You haven't proven otherwise, so I why SHOULD I prove that? And really; most Pokemon fans don't care for JIGGLYPUFF anymore, should she be cut too? Hell, should all the Pokemon except Pikachu, Mewtwo, and Charizard be cut and replaced? And it's not opinion; it's FACT. Why fix what isn't broken?

That is all I have to say.

[Slissith]

Saying that Scizor or Gengar is more popular choice is not an established fact at all, there are in fact many pokemon used frequently in a competitive manner such as tyranitar, dragonite, salamence, skarmory, lucario and many others.

While many people may like those 2, many others may also dislike them. Starters are different though, most people like them at a degree or another. When you add starters, when you can be certain that you please the majority. What is more nostalgic than the starters themselves?

Both are in fact linked to Blastoise and Venusaur, who are also used competitively.

[PartisanDaw]

-.- Okay P7. That's either dumb,out of mind or whatever. Why changing something that's good? Huh?I , have the time to answer.

Answer:DON'T CHANGE.

[AEM]

I choose PKM Trainer (Brawl), Zoroark, and Meowt-



Why is Scizor and Gengar there. But not Meowth.

WHY THE HELL, WOULD YOU PUT TWO RANDOM POKEMON, OVER FREAKING MEOWTH.

Here I'm going to go ahead and try that rating thing you guys do.

Meowth
Representation
Meowth is best known for two roles, the anime and representing Team Rocket, the same villians who have appeared as the main villian in most of the pokemon games.
SCORE 5

Popularity
Meowth is mostly popular for the anime, a show seen across the world. Meowth has appeared in the majority if not all of the episodes, he has also have had several of his own episodes.
SCORE 5

Viability
As a Pokemon, Meowth has plenty of moves to look through specials to smashes, just like almost every other pokemon. He also could yse any Team Rocket gear if desired to. Meowth after all is a very intelligent Pokemon.
SCORE 5

Uniqueness
Despite being another Pokemon. Certainly Meowth is also known for being intelligient, it seems like Meowth builds the majority of all Rocket Weapons. Why shouldn't he some of 'em for Smashes and stuff? Using Team Rockey gear that he possibly invented is a great idea to make Meowth 204958375983745 times different then the other Pokemon!
SCORE 5

TOTAL SCORE

Total 20/20 - SCORE 100 PERFECT

[PartisanDaw]

^ Same score like Isaac,Ivan,but they removed Isaac over IC's and Meowth was never on the List. -.- Odd.

[DGN]

Aug 15, 2011 3:28:12 GMT -5 Slissith said:

Saying that Scizor or Gengar is more popular choice is not an established fact at all, there are in fact many pokemon used frequently in a competitive manner such as tyranitar, dragonite, salamence, skarmory, lucario and many others.

And let's not forget some of those other pokemon more famous to the series such as Gengar and Scizor:
ARTICUNO
ZAPDOS
MOLTRES
MEWTWO
MEW
ENTEI
RAIKOU
SUICUNE
LUGIA
HO-OH
CELEBI
REGIROCK
REGICE
REGISTEEL
LATIOS
LATIAS
KYOGRE
GROUDON
RAYQUAZA
JIRACHI
DEOXYS
AND ALL DEM OTHAH LEGENDAREEZ OUT DAR!
ID TOOTALLEE MAINE MYOO.

[PhantomVII]

Aug 14, 2011 21:48:18 GMT -5 Dettadeus said:

If you don't want to be repetitive, why are you including the Original 12 that have been in every Smash game?

Not the same type of repetition... at all. That is not related to what I was talking about, not by far.

AEM: You are clearly biased for Meowth. Not only did you post that just to rub your bias for Meowth in my face, but you improperly used my scoring system to call him "perfect". You should realize that it is not that easy to get characters you want in this game, and you should rethink your entire purpose for posting that.

@da Generic Name: You just listed several legendary Pokemon, most of which are not even viable characters. Seriously. What was the purpose of listing Kyogre when it is blatantly obvious that a 14-foot whale could not by any stretch of the imagination work in a Smash Bros game?

If any of you truly wish to debate me, PM me and we'll set up a time on the Xat.

[DGN]

Aug 15, 2011 12:32:09 GMT -5 PhantomVII said:

@da Generic Name: You just listed several legendary Pokemon, most of which are not even viable characters. Seriously. What was the purpose of listing Kyogre when it is blatantly obvious that a 14-foot whale could not by any stretch of the imagination work in a Smash Bros game?

I said they were more famous than Scizor or Gengar. NOT that they'd be better choices.

Aug 14, 2011 21:37:00 GMT -5 DGN said:

Really, atm all I have to say is that DMX defined popularity as how well people knew the characters, not how liked they were.
If you play Pokemon Red/Blue you can see the starters within the first 10 minutes of playing.
Gengar and Scizor, however, you find later on in the game and therefore aren't as well known.
Also, using too many starters is too repetitive? Gengar is a poison type, and so is Ivysaur in Brawl. Scizor is a steel type, of which Lucario is as well. Yeah, consistency, man.

THIS was the post I was looking for a reply from.

[Excalibur]

Aug 15, 2011 12:32:09 GMT -5 PhantomVII said:

Aug 14, 2011 21:48:18 GMT -5 Dettadeus said:

If you don't want to be repetitive, why are you including the Original 12 that have been in every Smash game?

Not the same type of repetition... at all. That is not related to what I was talking about, not by far.

AEM: You are clearly biased for Meowth. Not only did you post that just to rub your bias for Meowth in my face, but you improperly used my scoring system to call him "perfect". You should realize that it is not that easy to get characters you want in this game, and you should rethink your entire purpose for posting that.

@da Generic Name: You just listed several legendary Pokemon, most of which are not even viable characters. Seriously. What was the purpose of listing Kyogre when it is blatantly obvious that a 14-foot whale could not by any stretch of the imagination work in a Smash Bros game?

If any of you truly wish to debate me, PM me and we'll set up a time on the Xat.

I love how you reply only to the points you can counter-argue. It's funny, since you completely ignored GY's response, and ignored Det's reply for the most part too.

[-Dr.MarioX-]

If I may suggest something to all of the people angry over our decision, I'd like you to consider the fact that we are yet to let you down with character choices. You guys have questioned our choices before (Gooey, Chun-Li, and Goku mainly) and yet I see a signature above me that declares Gooey and Goku as two of someone's mains.

We're preparing for 0.8 and weather you like Gengar and Scizor or not, you will enjoy this game. We have many new characters (we're shooting for 10 new ones) and new stages too! You don't have to like every character. Did you like every character in Brawl or Melee? Most likely, you didn't. It's even better if you don't like a character in this game because there are 79 other characters to choose from! We're trying to attract every hardcore video game fan we can. We can't please everyone.

[StayPuft]

Actually, I liked all the characters in Brawl/Melee, because they were logically picked.

The only real complaint I have about the characters in the game so far is Chun-Li, and that is mostly because Street Fighter was already repped and it didn't need another one. I'm fine with Gooey and Goku, personally.

And technically you can't force someone to like a game, they decide if they like it themselves.

[DGN]

Aug 15, 2011 12:50:27 GMT -5 -Dr.MarioX- said:

We're preparing for 0.8 and weather you like Gengar and Scizor or not, you will enjoy this game.

HAHAHAHAAHAGHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAH
I'm sorry. IT's just the wonderful WEATHER we're having, WHETHER or not people like it.
I'm sorry. I just laughed irl.

It's even better if you don't like a character in this game because there are 79 other characters to choose from! We're trying to attract every hardcore video game fan we can. We can't please everyone.

I'd like to note that SSF2, with expansions, will probably end up having 100+ in the end...or something like that...

[SmashKing201]

@dmx

I get your point that this roster will not please everyone, but with a roster of 80, a majority of people will want all vets (except Melee Y.Link) to return.

And have you noticed that despite Phantom publicly giving his reasons for the change that this new Trainer is yet to even get one vote. Its clear that Phantom is the only person who see's this new trainer as a reasonable choice.

Again, I agree that we cant please everyone, but this new trainer pleases no one at all. Neither those for or against Brawl Trainer wants the currently planned one.

[Excalibur]

Aug 15, 2011 12:50:27 GMT -5 -Dr.MarioX- said:

If I may suggest something to all of the people angry over our decision, I'd like you to consider the fact that we are yet to let you down with character choices. You guys have questioned our choices before (Gooey, Chun-Li, and Goku mainly) and yet I see a signature above me that declares Gooey and Goku as two of someone's mains.

We're preparing for 0.8 and weather you like Gengar and Scizor or not, you will enjoy this game. We have many new characters (we're shooting for 10 new ones) and new stages too! You don't have to like every character. Did you like every character in Brawl or Melee? Most likely, you didn't. It's even better if you don't like a character in this game because there are 79 other characters to choose from! We're trying to attract every hardcore video game fan we can. We can't please everyone.

Ohohoho. Don't make me laugh. So now you're IMPOSING for us to deal with it? I sense communism... You guys need to learn a bit more about democracy.
About the Brawl thing:
Lies. I loved all the characters on it, like SP mentioned, they were logically picked.
On the new characters:
Goku was an amazing choice to be in SSBC. Hell, why do you think SSF2 has him too? I also am quite fond of Gooey, he's quite the fighter. Thy arguments are invalid.