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Post by GoldenYuiitusin on Aug 15, 2011 13:05:06 GMT -5
Not the same type of repetition... at all. That is not related to what I was talking about, not by far. AEM: You are clearly biased for Meowth. Not only did you post that just to rub your bias for Meowth in my face, but you improperly used my scoring system to call him "perfect". You should realize that it is not that easy to get characters you want in this game, and you should rethink your entire purpose for posting that. @da Generic Name: You just listed several legendary Pokemon, most of which are not even viable characters. Seriously. What was the purpose of listing Kyogre when it is blatantly obvious that a 14-foot whale could not by any stretch of the imagination work in a Smash Bros game? If any of you truly wish to debate me, PM me and we'll set up a time on the Xat. I love how you reply only to the points you can counter-argue. It's funny, since you completely ignored GY's response, and ignored Det's reply for the most part too. He didn't. He sent me a reply via PM. I was just posting what I reponded in a PM. |
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Excalibur
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Post by Excalibur on Aug 15, 2011 13:06:54 GMT -5
I love how you reply only to the points you can counter-argue. It's funny, since you completely ignored GY's response, and ignored Det's reply for the most part too. He didn't. He sent me a reply via PM. I was just posting what I reponded in a PM. I meant your second reply, the one in yellow font. Have you received a reply for that one? |
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Post by GoldenYuiitusin on Aug 15, 2011 13:07:58 GMT -5
Yeah. I haven't read it yet, but it's saying I got one.
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Post by SmashKing201 on Aug 15, 2011 13:09:07 GMT -5
If the Brawl Trainer's pokemon are so repeatative, then so is the FE reps. Just like Pokemon, FE changes generation by generation. So, should we remove Marth & Roy? That would not be a popular decision, so why remove Brawl Trainer?
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Post by GoldenYuiitusin on Aug 15, 2011 13:12:16 GMT -5
Actually, by this logic, we shouldn't have Roy, because he's only important in one game, and is considered the worst lord in FE history. Being a Smash vet apparently doesn't guarantee a spot, as Squirtle and Ivysaur prove.
So guys, say bye bye to Roy. If you want to play as him, play Melee.
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Post by -Dr.MarioX- on Aug 15, 2011 13:14:25 GMT -5
...Did someone just mention something about government and then try to collect spelling on the internet? That's pretty pointless...
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Excalibur
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Post by Excalibur on Aug 15, 2011 13:16:22 GMT -5
...Did someone just mention something about government and then try to collect spelling on the internet? That's pretty pointless... Implying you force what you want over everyone else's opinion, just because you are devs and basically with this decision, like SmashKing said, is not pleasing anyone from the public. And not caring about votes either, ignoring the fact of democracy. Plus your post was pretty pointless too. If you want to argue, at least use correct spelling and grammar. |
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Post by gigapichu on Aug 15, 2011 13:18:10 GMT -5
Dr. Mario X, talking like that isn't going to solve anything.
If you're going to post productively, and be the bigger person, you shouldn't post only to make a comeback at someone.
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Post by -Dr.MarioX- on Aug 15, 2011 13:18:16 GMT -5
Go read my latest post on the Everything You Need to Know About 0.8 Thread.
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Post by SmashKing201 on Aug 15, 2011 13:53:24 GMT -5
Ok, lets do some calculations real quick.
I will add up the total of both polls. The Pokemon Poll in this forum, which is voted by members here. And the other Pokemon Poll on the Crusade Facebook Page that is voted by fans outside the forum.
So Brawl Trainer has 16 votes, being how Squirtle, Ivysaur, & Charizard are part of that choice, they get 16 votes each Pokemon. Same rules apply for other Trainers on the poll depending on how many votes they have.
Now, the Poll on Facebook only includes individual Pokemon, but they will be added together with the Forum votes. Lets begin
Charizard = 22 votes
Ivysaur = 19 votes
Squirtle = 18 votes
Zoroark = 3 votes
Gengar = 4 votes
Scizor = 2 votes
Dragonite = 0 votes
Chikorita = 5 votes
Quilava= 5 votes
Feraligator = 5 votes
Alakazam = 1 vote
Rhydon = 0 vote
Deoxys = 2 votes
Clearly the Brawl Trainer's Pokemon have the most votes INSIDE & OUTSIDE the forum. Therefore the Brawl Trainer's pokemon are most wanted and most important. No reason for the Brawl Trainer to change his Pokemon.
Also I find it awkward how Gengar is in half of all the options on THIS poll.
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AEM
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I'm mostly a kind gentlemen. I'm a big procastinator, so sorry if I seem lazy.
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Post by AEM on Aug 15, 2011 13:57:19 GMT -5
If you don't want to be repetitive, why are you including the Original 12 that have been in every Smash game? Not the same type of repetition... at all. That is not related to what I was talking about, not by far. AEM: You are clearly biased for Meowth. Not only did you post that just to rub your bias for Meowth in my face, but you improperly used my scoring system to call him "perfect". You should realize that it is not that easy to get characters you want in this game, and you should rethink your entire purpose for posting that. If any of you truly wish to debate me, PM me and we'll set up a time on the Xat. Challenge accepted. |
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Post by SmashKing201 on Aug 15, 2011 13:59:30 GMT -5
Not the same type of repetition... at all. That is not related to what I was talking about, not by far. AEM: You are clearly biased for Meowth. Not only did you post that just to rub your bias for Meowth in my face, but you improperly used my scoring system to call him "perfect". You should realize that it is not that easy to get characters you want in this game, and you should rethink your entire purpose for posting that. If any of you truly wish to debate me, PM me and we'll set up a time on the Xat.  FIXED. lol |
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Post by GoldenYuiitusin on Aug 15, 2011 14:16:49 GMT -5
Well, I can't quote what P7 said, for some reason, so I'll post them here.
What he said: I don't even know where to begin in explaining to you how irrelevant that is. We almost cut Ice Climbers, but there were no major complaints about that. "Established" characters were cut from Brawl and are also bound to be cut from Smash 4. Surprise, surprise. It's not fully removing a character, anyway; it's more like removing 2/3 of a character.
My response: That's a load of bull. You have had SERIOUS complaints about that. But of course, we on the Forum apparently don't count for crap. And no, they aren't "bound to be cut". Characters were cut for a reason. Pichu? Nothing but a joke. Young Link? Replaced by Toon Link. Dr. Mario? People complained about him not being an alt. costume. Roy? Time and Roster Restraints. Mewtwo? Time and Roster restraints. No one in Brawl has that problem. Sure, Time and Roster restraints can affect EVERYONE, but there are a crapton of fans WORLDWIDE that want Mewtwo and Roy to return. And seeing as they were the closest to being finished of the scrapped characters, they have the biggest shot of coming back. Speaking of Brawl's scrapped characters, here's why they didn't make it. Dixie Kong? Sakurai couldn't implement his idea of a tag-team for Diddy at the time. Toon Zelda? He made her a clone (as is evident by "Toon Sheik" in the data), and he knows the fans didn't like clones last time. So he had ONE clone (Toon Link) while changed up other characters to make them less clone-like (Falco, Ganondorf, Lucas, Wolf). So tell me, other than Lucario (who people assume will be replaced by a 5th Gen like Zoroark), Snake and Sonic (who people assume won't return because they're "guests"), and Toon Link (who people assume will be re-replaced by Young Link or cut entirely) do YOU think is going?
What he said: I've showed this game to friends of mine at school, etc., and I've gotten very positive reactions from them. And almost all of them suggest characters or at least ask what other characters we're going to include. Surprisingly enough, many of those suggestions are much different from characters suggested here at the forums. For example, I've had requests for Kraid or Mother Brain from one guy (not happening though) and also for "the guy from Contra" from someone else. So you don't think thousands of people will play SSBC? A version of 0.6 I found in my MediaFire has 907 downloads (the game is growing steadily more popular, think about the numbers that 1.0 will have). The SWF thread has 181,837 views. Picture the numbers after the website is up and when the game is closer to completion. It's going to be thousands, if not tens of thousands. Or maybe even hundreds of thousands.
My response: Bear in mind that you have also factor in multiple downloads, for example, I had to download 0.7 3 times thinking that I should've gotten a Music folder, only to find that since I HAD a folder that said "Music" on my Desktop, all the music files went in THAT folder. Also bear in mind that views counts as many times a single person views the thread. INCLUDING it's creator. Seeing as there's a lot of posts by the same users, all the times THEY'VE been on the thread count for the total. And really, if it weren't for you advertising it in different places, no one would care. I mean, GameFaqs and IGN discovered it themselves, and they dislike it. They dislike SSF2 as well, so don't let THAT get to you. And to go about getting positive remarks from friends, what were you going to expect? That they say negative things about a friend's work? You can't use "friends" as a source.
What he said: You're assuming completely that the reason Squirtle and Ivysaur were cut was out of bias, when it wasn't. The three of us discussed that (there was some debating involved), and suddenly Falcon mentioned that idea. We sort of stopped for a minute and said "Hey, that's a great idea!", and so we're doing it. But you ask what purpose do Gengar and Scizor have? What purpose does any Pokemon have? Honestly? I guess, however, what makes Gengar and Scizor unique is the fact that they weren't legendary nor starters, but they are popular nonetheless (as you can see by the info provided in the links). You compare them to Pikachu and Jigglypuff, but remember that Gengar and Scizor are well-known for being "cool" and not "cute". In that sense, they are essentially popular for different reasons. On another note, your entire argument is based on an assumption that just because a character has already been in Smash Bros they are already a better character choice than any new character. By that logic, we should bring back Dr. Mario and Pichu simply because they appeared in Melee.
My response: So pretty much it comes down to "O MAH GAWD THEY BE SO COOL". And different Pokemon serve important purposes depending on the game, and one in particular, out of the games. Pikachu is the MASCOT. Starter Pokemon are the Pokemon that you begin your quest with. Pokemon on the cover of a game serve as the mascot for that specific game. Rhydon serves as the first Pokemon concieved. Mewtwo serves as the only "evil" Pokemon you can find (prior to Genesect). And no, the fact that Squirtle and Ivysaur were in BRAWL is why they have priority. We were promised "every Brawl veteran minus the Ice Climbers (because of programming issues) and Mewtwo and Roy to return." Now, we got the Ice Climbers, as apparently, programming issues are being worked around, but instead, we lose Squirtle and Ivysaur. That isn't "every Brawl veteran". And no, Dr. Mario and Pichu were replaced with legitimate reasoning. They were clones and unpopular. The only true clone in Brawl is Toon Link, and he's a spiritual successor to Young Link, who WAS popular. Squirtle and Ivysaur were replaced here because "GENGAR AND SCIZOR ARE SO EFFING COOL". Big difference.
What he said: The purpose of doing this was to show you that these characters have support, especially among Pokemon fans. If you want to search for other similar threads out there, be my guest. You're likely to find Gengar and Scizor at least a few times. And how do I know? Because I've done that. If you'd like to, conduct some further research on Gengar and Scizor and see for yourself how popular and well-received they are. Also, you claim that because people like a character that doesn't make them important. What, then, makes a character important? Enlighten me.
My response: Support for THEIR games, not Smash. There's a HUGE difference there. They like the characters, and sure, they may like seeing them in Smash. However, as you know, I like Entei a lot. Does that mean that I would say "screw everyone else, I'm adding Entei to my Smash game, and you can just take it or leave it!"? No, as that's immoral. I wouldn't let what I feel is right control the Roster, and you shouldn't either. And you need to get your head out of your @$$, Popularity =/= Importance. It can LEAD to importance, as is the case with Pikachu, but otherwise, it means NOTHING. You know who is really frigging popular in the Mother series? Flint. Is he important to the series No. He may be playable in the first Chapter of Mother 3, but after that, he takes a backseat and is a NPC for the rest of the game IF he shows up. Another example? Geno. Geno is "popular" but he is NO WHERE near important to the Mario series. He may be important in ONE game, but that's all he has. If you really think popularity defines importance, then you need to quit the game-making business, as you will fail miserably if you decide to expand beyond Crusade.
What he said: Actually I've been trying to avoid quadrupeds for the most part because they are awkward and don't exactly fit in with humanoid fighters. They're just more difficult to work with than they are unique.
My response: You've got an EFFing blob that has NO LIMBS. Argument is invalid. And really, this is only opinion. Sora Ltd. had no problem with Ivysaur. Capcom had no problem with Amaterasu. Just because you lack the ability to comprehend them doesn't mean others do. I mean, at first I didn't think Ivysaur could work when I first saw Pokemon Trainer on the DOJO, but when I played as Ivysaur, my mind was blown. And I commended Sakurai for adding such an unconventional fighter and making it work.
What he said: On the contrary, many fans would be disappointed if we cut Jigglypuff because she's been in Smash since the beginning... Lucario's already in SSBC, so we can't really cut him... So those two are definitely staying in. As for Squirtle and Ivysaur... maybe there are better Pokemon out there... maybe more interesting ones like Alakazam, or Rhydon, or Heracross. Or even Dragonite or Tyranitar. Maybe even Arcanine. Or Aggron. Or Gengar. Or Scizor. You know, Brawl's roster may not be "broken", but maybe it wasn't the absolute best it could be.
My response: Yeah, dissapointment over Jigglypuff, who many people want GONE (myself not included), is much worse than dissapointment over Squirtle (who is much more popular) and Ivysaur (who is breath of fresh air compared to all the humanoid fighters). I fail to see the logic in that. There are plenty of people that feel Jigglypuff overstayed her welcome.
Now I see what it comes down to. "These characters didn't make it in, so the Roster isn't good." And I've noticed that ALL those charaters you listed are fully evolved Pokemon. Which really explains a lot about you. You have that "If they aren't fully evolved, they aren't worth SH1T to me." mentality. And more interesting is subjective. Besides, Squirtle and Ivysaur are more iconic being stages of the original starters, which is what Sakurai was INTENDING when he made Pokemon Trainer. He wasn't picking what he believed to be the most popular Pokemon, he was picking down a list of starters from the 1st Gen. Squirtle was the most popular of the Basic ones, Charizard was the most popular of the 2rd Stage ones. Ivysaur was added to make balance and be a 1st Stage Pokemon. And if you noticed, they all cycle by which Type beats the other. Water<Grass<Fire. And those three types are the most iconic of types in Pokemon. To get rid of two of them for obscure types like Ghost and Bug shows what little appreciation you have of the Pokemon series.
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dry
Forum Regular
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Post by dry on Aug 15, 2011 14:20:06 GMT -5
Well I disliked Link, Fox, Mario and Sonic, but that was more a personal thing than anything else. Plus those four are perfect for a smash bros game.
Ok, Pokemon Trainer.
Why Gengar and Scizor? Why not Heracross, who is the 2nd most popular gen 2 Pokemon and swept the whole of gen 3 at 1HP? Why not Alakazam, who is used by almost every psychic type gym leader/elite four member, is known as the most intelligent non-legendary Pokemon ever, and was one of the top OUs in gen 1, one of the best glass cannon sweepers in gen 3 and is recently making a comeback in gen 5 with magic guard life orb? Why not Garchomp, who is the main Pokemon of one of the more iconic champions in the series, infamous as the second non-legendary to be ever in the uber tier, the only one to have been in the uber tier for the last two gens and the reason for Flygon being UU? Why not-- you get the point.
Also, why keep Charizard? You don't have to have him in; he's not that popular anymore, and he's certainly not popular around here. If you want originality, we can change all three Pokemon, instead of just changing two of them.
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Post by GoldenYuiitusin on Aug 15, 2011 14:22:10 GMT -5
I actually wouldn't mind Heracross, but only if he wasn't a part of a Trainer. Let alone a Trainer with 3 established Pokemon.
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AEM
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Post by AEM on Aug 15, 2011 14:22:47 GMT -5
Not the same type of repetition... at all. That is not related to what I was talking about, not by far. AEM: You are clearly biased for Meowth. Not only did you post that just to rub your bias for Meowth in my face, but you improperly used my scoring system to call him "perfect". You should realize that it is not that easy to get characters you want in this game, and you should rethink your entire purpose for posting that. If any of you truly wish to debate me, PM me and we'll set up a time on the Xat. Challenge accepted. Infact I'll begin here. What about everyone then? I'm sure more people then just me want Meowth in this game. He is more deserving then what Scizor and Gengar will ever be. Also, I noticed you posted that regardless of what we say, you still decided what's going to be implemented in the game. Here's my counter argument, if so then why would make a forum? Why would you make a topic for this? Why would you even mention anything about the game then? Why the hell would you want us to know anything? SSB Listens to Fans. SSF2 Listens to Fans. To an Extent at least. But you don't? If you choose to ignore what the people say, you aren't fit to work on a Smash Bros game. This doesn't make you any better then say, Capcom. If your going to want to make a GOOD Smash Bros game, then you have to listen to the people who are going to PLAY it. I'm not saying add a character for everyone. But I'm saying add a character a good majority of everyone likess, like say Haggar, Duck Hunt Dog, Ancient Minister, and Meowth. I am awaiting your counter argument. |
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Post by -Dr.MarioX- on Aug 15, 2011 14:36:14 GMT -5
Phantom declines to a response. He's mostly done with the forums with the exception of the developer's back room. He said refusing to accept ridiculous suggestions isn't quite the same as ignoring and he shouldn't be forced to promote them. I agree.
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Post by GoldenYuiitusin on Aug 15, 2011 14:38:35 GMT -5
LAWL. You are one to talk about ridiculous suggestions.
And so P7 shall go down in history as the Biased Hypocritical Coward. And you shall go down in history as the Biased Hypocritical Coward's Lapdog.
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Post by DGN on Aug 15, 2011 14:43:12 GMT -5
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AEM
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I'm mostly a kind gentlemen. I'm a big procastinator, so sorry if I seem lazy.
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Post by AEM on Aug 15, 2011 14:44:58 GMT -5
Phantom declines to a response. He's mostly done with the forums with the exception of the developer's back room. He said refusing to accept ridiculous suggestions isn't quite the same as ignoring and he shouldn't be forced to promote them. I agree. Scizor and Gengar over Squirlte and Ivysaur is a ridiculous suggestion. Not even suggesting Meowth is a ridiculous suggestion. Basing Pokemon on popularity is a ridiculous suggestion. Pikachu -> Mascot Jigglypuff -> 2nd Most Popular Pokemon at time Mewtwo -> Reps Legendary Pokemon Pichu -> Reps 2nd Gen Pokemon Trainer -> Reps Pokemon Trainers and Starters Lucario -> Reps 4th Gen Zoroark -> Reps 5th Gen Meowth -> Reps Anime and Team Rocket Despite Jigglypuff being in because of Popularity, she was second on the list. Not 14th and 19th. |
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